Episode 126

I think so many times in parenting, we can feel so lonely. We feel like our spouses or significant others don't understand all that's going on in our internal world. Lots of times we don't even understand what's going on in our own internal world, much less able than to be there for our kids as they're dealing with stuff, like to really understand what's happening inside of them, how to communicate that, and really how to have a family where we share that.

 

where nobody has to be alone. Nobody has to take that burden and be by themselves in this. and, I like this. I wasn't looking at the camera. was looking at the ring light. So let's start again.

 

I'm sure all of you can relate to this idea that even when you're in a family, you can still feel very alone, even in a marriage or with the same other. Okay, start over.

 

Parenting can be very hard work. It can actually be very lonely work sometimes. And all too often, all the demands of parenting can really cause us to take on so much emotional and mental labor onto care. Okay, refine that. Things like take five, dude. Thanks for being patient.

 

for all the parents listening to this podcast, know, parenting can be very difficult work. but something I think that can be surprising can be very lonely work because we're all in this together, right? Like we're in this with our spouses, our significant others and our kids. And aren't we all working together, but all too often we just aren't like all too often we're kind of siloed with the different responsibilities and demands on us. And we're not really able to seemingly, listen or even communicate what those things

 

that are burdening us and on us. So today, Sara and I are excited to bring to the podcast, a guest, Zach Watson. He's over at Instagram and TikTok, almost a half a million subscribers and followers. He's putting out such great content on what he's calling invisible labor. And he's really helping men specifically, but also just couples and families be able to better understand this topic. And we really wanted to take that topic and teach you

 

how to do this with your kids too, not only with your marriage and your kids, but as we all are more open and receptive to understanding what's happening in each other's world, the weight that we're all carrying, the more we can carry it together and we don't have to be alone. So I think you're going to really enjoy this conversation with Zach. He's so great at talking about this subject. So stay till the end because he's got some really great things he's doing in the next couple months.

 

some really great free things he's giving away. And I think you're going to love being a part of that. It's going to help you a lot. before you start that podcast, please take a moment to stop, rate this podcast, review it. If this is helping you leave a comment, it just means the world to us. When you email us, you can email me at Kyle at art of raising humans .com. When you email me and say, Hey, the podcast is helping me this way or that way. All that just is so helpful and encouraging to us. And we're so excited to bring you this interview with Zach.

 

Hello and welcome to The Art of Raising Humans, I'm Kyle. Hi, I'm Sara. And you know, Sara, something that we've been noticing a lot as we've been searching on fun things like Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, all those fun things is a new kind of way of perceiving relationships, you know? And one of those ones that really smacks me in the face every time I see it is this idea of mental load, you know? Yeah, yeah. Because I know we talked about this back with Paige a few weeks ago.

 

but about how there's so many things you do as a mom that I'm not even aware of. I don't even know they're on your plate. Yeah, I found it. I've loved this topic. It's given language for how I have felt, but I didn't know how to say what I was feeling. What am I doing? What have I done today? Not even you asking me, just me asking me. And it's given language for what is happening.

 

Yeah, I've loved that. And so what we really wanted to do for the audience of arteries and humans is bring some people on who are great at discussing this. So today we're so excited to have Zach Watson with us. He's killing it over at Instagram and Tik Tok. He calls himself an invisible labor coach, which I've never heard of that. Have heard of that? No, he's also a recovering man child, which I can totally relate to that. I think a lot of guys who are listening to the podcast can relate to that. Like many of us are recovering man childs.

 

you

 

but I wanna just introduce Zach and say, Zach, welcome to the podcast. Could you kinda just tell us who you are and what you're passionate about doing?

 

Sure. Well, first off, if you've already had Paige, then I'm not going to add a whole lot to this conversation. because I think she, you know, she's probably my favorite person to stitch and try to elaborate on the things that she says. But, yeah, so invisible labor coach. Yep, I made that up, but there's probably never been one before. But I think invisible labor

 

hahahaha

 

Mm -hmm.

 

is something that I've learned significantly a lot about in the past two years. I'm really proud I just made my thousandth post on Instagram in the last two years. So I would say 90 -ish, 80 % of those posts have been talking about emotional labor, mental load, care labor, those little pieces of domestic labor that you don't see like the picking up of socks off the ground and.

 

Nice, congratulations.

 

Yeah.

 

putting the shoes back where they go or, you know, putting your hand in the sink to get those little bits of like the after I shaved this morning. so Invisible Labor Coach, I think it's I help guys develop awareness for a lot of the labor that's happening in and around them. And I think a great way to see it if you guys have ever seen that comic of two fish are swimming and older fish swims by and says, how's the water today?

 

yes.

 

two of them like what the hell's water as I I'm kind of the guy pointing out that there's water in and around

 

You

 

That's good. Well, and I bet it really gets complicated too. When you're I you aren't just married, but now you've got kids involved in as well. Like I know, I know in our conversation with Paige, Sara was even commenting on things I'd never thought of that now she had been thinking when the kids were little, like, when did the kids poop last? Do we have, do we have enough diapers for the week? I mean, I don't think I ever had a thought about those things. So, so I'm sure as you're helping men.

 

in this area in particular, I'm sure there's a lot of that that changes as well when you bring in some more humans into the mix.

 

Yeah, think that the, I think Alyssa, she still owns most of the mental out in her home. Like I acknowledge that the main difference I think is I'm aware of it. I think for a long time I was completely unaware of it. And I think one of the big differences probably between say me and Paige is that she's living it and I'm catching up. So, you know, I shared the title of recovering man child because I think there are lot of moments when

 

Yeah.

 

I'm having these aha moments of like, my God, I don't think about that ever. you know, when I'm annoyed with, when we're annoyed with each other, cause we're on our phones, I'm answering DMs on Instagram. Meanwhile, she's looking at, you know, what shoe size are toddler needs to have. Cause she noticed that it was a little snug fitting this morning. And that's not something that I pay attention to. consistently make me sharing, you know, I'm on.

 

part 237, I think, of the Mental Load series, which is a mixture of skits and me sharing moments where I'm acknowledging that Alyssa's managing the Mental Load or I'm realizing I've added Mental Load onto her by asking maybe a dumb question or something like, if it's on the shared calendar, I'm saying, where are you guys going? Well, look at the calendar, Zach. So, yeah.

 

Yes, yep. Yeah, I guess I appreciate hearing a male voice, you know, since you are you are living it, you're living the other side of the experience, you know, being the dad and and you're obviously active and you're trying to join into her process. And like you said, you're not even as a taking over, you know, but you're

 

just your awareness of her experience. It's incredibly validating and just really, really powerful. I think for dads and couples trying to navigate this, your voice of, know, this is what I do, this is what I'm noticing just really brings a lot of light to this subject. And so I'm really curious, how do you guys do that? How?

 

How does that happen in your house? Cause she's probably not sitting down every day and going, here's my mental load. Let me unload it on you. How does that come to light?

 

Well, I have a cheat code because I make videos every day about it. So it kind of comes up in context of the coaching practice. But I would say that the thing that I coach all my clients to do is have a weekly meeting with your partner. And I think the place where we need to start, like if we want to take on more of the mental around the home, we need to first be aware of it. So step one is starting to have conversations around the minimum standard of care of things.

 

And or who has ownership of things so I I've coached to the fair play method so you can see that book up in the corner there I'm a fair play facilitator. There's a hundred of them that have been trained that way and I'm one of three guys One of the things that they really recommend in the book when I give the spark notes of it is identify and have awareness around like all of the responsibilities almost like in a corporate organizational chart you would look at what the

 

This is the head of sales. This is the head of HR. Here are the people that work under you. These are your individual job requirements is like in homes. We don't have that but in the 21st century it you know, there's some level of requirement I think I forget if it was Paige or someone else made a video talking about how they wanted to get their kids signed up for swim lessons. So they needed to be up till midnight when the doors open for it if they didn't grab the spot in the first four minutes

 

Wow, yeah

 

all the good spots were gonna dry up. And I think like, when we think about the level of complexity of like being awake till midnight, having your, the website, being ready to refresh and having your credit card memorized or plugged into Chrome so that you can just do the CVV, CSV code. Like the amount of complexity that's required for modern parents to like be effective is much more complex than we had.

 

Yeah.

 

decades ago. So if we can start seeing our homes as organizations where in an organization you have weekly meetings, you have monthly meetings, you have check -ins, you have a lot of different operating procedures so that you can have all the employees in your company knowing what they're accountable for and being aware of what job duties they have. We don't have enough of that in our homes, which Eve talks about in the book, fair play. And so what I help people do is see

 

and talk about those things. And I think there's a lot of moments where guys have to do a lot of unlearning of what their responsibilities are. And I think there's so much of us, know, I'm a millennial and I see that I think all of us are doing at least a little bit more than our dads. And we think that that progress is enough and we aren't seeing that we still have a bit of a ways to go. And I think.

 

me doing the emotional labor of kind of speaking that softly and knowing that I'm coming from a place of 2020. Alyssa was scared to bring an article to my attention of all the domestic labor she does in the house because she's afraid I was going to be defensive. And I think that right there is the problem that most of the the guys that I speak to are also having.

 

Yeah.

 

Well, know, and something else, Zach, I would love for you to share, and I think is really helpful is understanding how to change some of the language.

 

You know, and so when we just, talked before this podcast, you were saying that that's a key point is understanding some of these terms and how you're using them. Like I know for us a big part in our marriage and we've done podcasts on this is getting, you know, getting rid of things like you make me feel this way, or that makes me feel that's such a disempowering, blaming, attacking way to talk to each other. And so I'm curious about what are some of the language ways that you and Alyssa change how you talk about these things so you can better understand it.

 

So I think a great place to start are like the, are three main ones are domestic labor, cognitive labor or mental load and emotional labor. So the domestic labor is typically talking about physical aspects. There's the really obvious ones of doing the dishes, mowing the lawn, taking the kids to school. Those are physical. Then there's like the less known ones that reference earlier of picking socks up off the ground.

 

you know, moving laundry from washer to dryer. It's like wiping the counters. It's all the little things. It's when you notice crumbs around the ground, like sweeping up the crumbs. says, goddamn, dried up rice are gonna be the death of me. So you have, yeah. So there's domestic labor, which is typically,

 

Or you step on sticky stuff in the kitchen. That's gonna, yeah.

 

We can break these into further categories, but I think these three are the most important. So your physical domestic labor. Second one is the cognitive labor. it's if we were to look at those things, so mowing the lawn, thinking about how many days has it been since the lawn has been mowed? What settings should we put on? Is it going to rain in two days? Should I probably go a little bit earlier in doing it? You had talked earlier about, you know, how one was the last time that the kid pooped.

 

Mm -hmm.

 

Is saying okay when she would be expecting next bowel movement if they're really cranky. Maybe they're constipated. Maybe we need to give them something supplemental to get it out of there noticing when the noticing the planning the considering the calculating I think that Those things I think if you had to further exemplify them, they're typically things that can be spoken out loud but they're

 

Yes.

 

Yeah.

 

They can't often be seen. So I know that like right now, think, at least a couple minutes ago, my wife was clearing out some of the things in the pool. I know she keeps an eye on the pool almost all day looking for anything big that falls in. We have frogs that keep going in there and dying. We, there's, and she pays much closer attention to that. I recognize I don't carry that cognitive labor because I see that she's doing it.

 

my goodness.

 

And I know that she has a higher standard of care for the pool than I do. And then the third one is emotionally where it is kind of like the underlying caring that makes us do the mental load. So for example, let's say you're going to a relative's house and they feel super disrespected if you're a minute late. The person, let's say that was my parents, which they don't feel that way, but.

 

If I know that ahead of time, then I'm already doing the mental load of, we need to get there by one, it's a 45 minute drive, could be more, there could be Labor Day weekend traffic, so we need to leave probably closer to an hour away, which means, you know, it always takes our kid to get into the car, like, you can hear me doing the math out loud, the initial caring about the experience of the recipient of that labor, that's your emotional labor. They,

 

Yeah, yep, yep.

 

I'm a really big fan of Rose Hackman's book, Emotional Labor. I think she does a really good job breaking down the ideas of it in so much more than just like a domestic setting. So she talks about it in the space of sex work. She talks about it in the space of corporate areas. She talks about it, even just talking about tipping is pretty much paying people for emotional labor. So there's the...

 

Yeah.

 

And I think if you were to translate that into some of the fair play words is conception, planning and execution. Conception is a lot of the emotional labor. Planning is your mental and cognitive labor. Execution is your domestic labor.

 

Well, and I think you did a great job of showing this in a reel you did with Kristen Bell, not too long ago, right? Yeah, where she was thinking about a party that she was planning and all those different elements that lots of times I was like, Yeah, I don't really think about any of that. I'm just like, we're going, do we have food? Are we bringing it? And I know for Sara, it's like, yeah, does anyone have allergies? Is anybody? What's going on there? I'm like, let's just get some food. Let's bring it. But but to her, that's a lot bigger load than it is for me.

 

you

 

Mm

 

I just want to just get there and get it over with, but she's thinking about all those steps. So, you know, when, when I think of that, when I saw that real in particular, I was thinking a lot of this mental load stuff is about empathy. It's really about caring about the reality and the perception and, what's going on in the other. Right. And, and, and so I thought that's where it could translate so well to the work we do as parents with our kids, because, I was thinking to myself, Zach, like it's

 

Mm

 

there's so many times where I remember being frustrated with my parents because they were constantly just telling me to do things, things that were important to them, things that were unloading their mental load, right? But they didn't seem to care that I had my own mental load as a kid, that I was worried about this friendship, or I was, there was this girl I liked, and I was hoping she'd call me back or whatever it was. And as a kid, you're just supposed to drop all that and just care about what your parents care about, you know?

 

Mm

 

And so I was seeing this great correlation between as I practice this, and I'm curious if you have found this to be true, as I practice mental low with my wife, if I get into the habit of doing that, I get in the habit of empathizing with her on a daily basis about what her reality is like, I would think it would translate to then caring about my kids' reality too, and being much more open and receptive to the weight they are bearing each day.

 

Hmm.

 

Yeah, and I'll take a step back further because I think there's a lot of the guys that I have. So I think a lot of the guys that I do talk to are in that state. They're like, OK, I know my wife is overloaded. I know I need help seeing, understanding, having these conversations. Both of us get really emotional. And then there's the guys that don't want to show up to a call with me that hate my face because every time their wife sends my videos, they feel attacked. I think.

 

Yeah.

 

to those guys, one of the things that I'm gonna be working on. I've started a free community. We have a community where you have available office hours of me every week and then there's a free community. I'm kicking off a challenge for September. I don't know when this will air, but the October challenge that I'm planning out is the other one, which is guys being able to see the mental load that they have on their own. the step, the only way that you can, I think, see it for your kids is if you can

 

probably see it for your wife and you probably can't see it for wife until you can see it for yourself. So a lot of times when I'm trying to educate men on understanding mental load as a general idea, I say, well, what do do for work? And then my favorite is when they say that they're a project manager, because that is like the ultimate, I think, mental load. You have your employees that are the skilled workers that know what they need to do.

 

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

 

they're typically doing the executing and then you have your managers that they're like supporting and managing and thinking about all the things that need to be supported for their employees. And then you probably have the, you your C -suite people, they're doing more of the emotional labor of thinking big, big picture about the culture and having people feel supported. So helping guys see that so that they can then translate, yeah, it's like, it's really annoying when my...

 

when this guy that I manage is he never punches in his time card and I have to remind him on Monday morning or else HR gets on my ass about it. Like that's mental load and I say, wow, all right, so you are holding the mental load for him. Okay, now where's your wife holding the mental load for you? And then they can start building some of those skills of empathy, which Laura Danger said maybe a year ago pointing out that.

 

she'd reference one of my videos saying that empathy is a learned skill. And so many people I think I've heard say like, yeah, I don't empathize so well, like empathy isn't something I do. And it's like, it's just a learned skill. It's not something born within us necessarily.

 

Mm -hmm. Yep.

 

Yes. All right, I have a question. When you say that, when you talk about, I think I agree that really hits home for we kind of need to be able to recognize our own mental load. I think a lot of us go through life and it's just that's your job. This is my job, especially in a busy family. You're just getting day to day stuff done, getting the kids to soccer or whatever it might be. And actually take the time aside and go, OK.

 

What's mine and he's thinking about what's his and then we talk about that and then we you know We have teenagers and kids of different ages and so if we think about what's their mental load You know we have a teenager right now who's already kind of really stressed about she's in high school and thinking about what I do now impacts me four years from now in college and I know that's her mental load you know among other things but so we get all this and we get this communication going which so

 

You're not in our same spot, but I'm curious, how has this impacted your relationships within your family? Now that you've been doing this for a while, I'm kind of wanting that deeper of what's that internally? What's that like for you as a person now doing this compared to how you were and your relationship now compared to how it was?

 

I to start I would say, I think my skills of empathy have significantly grown. Last night when Alyssa, we were talking about dinner, she wasn't really hungry, she said, I'll just do pasta, I won't throw some meat sauce in there. I already know, like okay, I'm probably gonna get sleepy after this, because I always eat more pasta than I know my body can probably handle. And historically in college, my body can actually handle eating a full pound of it.

 

You

 

The reason I preface with that is half an hour later, we're on the couch. Alyssa is laying down. I go to sit down. She said, can I put my feet on you? That's cool. Our toddler was playing with their Paw Patrol toys. And I started dozing off. she like, give me a little kick. She's like, hey, stay with me here. And then she started managing.

 

Bathtime transition and saying hey, I've like we're gonna we're gonna head towards bath time soon and One of the things we recognize she my my wife got really angry the other day and she recognized that upon Apologizing both to me and have for it is she said Like I think I need to acknowledge out loud when I'm starting to feel irritated because then I hit like a boiling point that I can't I'm not good at managing

 

So she said I'm feeling irritated as like a like almost like a speed bump for herself And so that kind of snapped me up. I was like, okay, I Recognize I need to stop falling asleep here and I was you know somewhat actively like wanting to have like a little nap there so I could feel refreshed to manage bath time and bedtime, which is not not been smooth riding recently, so

 

Mm

 

Yeah.

 

In that moment, like I thought to myself, okay, I'm dozing off, she's seeing that she's managing the bath time, clearly our toddler is pushing against it, which means she probably feels lonely in the experience of managing this herself despite being in the same room with me. And then 20 minutes later, because I know that she needs to do the regulation of identifying herself, and I was like, is there anything else you need to regulate? we've been working on our language around emotions.

 

And she's like, yeah, I think I felt lonely in that. was like, yep, could have told you that. And she's like, what? didn't you? was like, well, you need to be able to label it for yourself. But coming back to your question, I think.

 

a year ago, two years ago, I don't think I could have seen loneliness coming out of that moment. I think I could have generally understood, okay, yeah, I'm kinda not participating, but loneliness I couldn't have keyed in on. One of the other things that I really coach my guys to, which you guys are super familiar with, the core motion wheel. So whenever there's anger, I am pushing my guys to say, okay, what's underneath the anger? Is it shame, guilt, fear, loneliness, sadness, or hurt?

 

Mmm.

 

Mm -hmm.

 

and us, like I started practicing that nine, nine months ago and my, again, my vocabulary around my own emotions has gotten significantly better. So I would say that that's another aspect I think that I've grown. So I think just my ability to see what other people are feeling when I have those available buckets of those, six emotions outside of anger and joy, that has really helped me. And I think.

 

much more often, I think the thing that I'm actively doing, you the first viral video that I had is a 6 .4 million or something on TikTok, which was, I had acknowledged that, think she was one and a half years old at the time. Our kid was sick. She's going down for a nap. And I said, hey, do you want to do water or milk? And I made in the video, said,

 

I think I added med -tel for my wife because I could have just chosen milk or water and then presented that as the option I was thinking rather than putting her as the decision maker on this one, which seems like such a minute, simple thing. people went crazy. They're like, why am I crying watching this? They were all of a sudden feeling so seen. And I think I've gotten much better able to see those moments of

 

Mm -hmm. Yep.

 

taking on mental load. It's my birthday tomorrow and I was talking, we were talking, thank you. We were talking about going to see a movie over the weekend. We haven't gone to see the movies in years now. And I said to Alyssa, do you wanna, how do you feel about gifting the mental load of like finding the time and figuring out like nap time and we're gonna have our parents babysit?

 

Happy birthday.

 

I'm just like, yeah, I'd be happy to do that. So like me being able just to see that as laborous, laborious versus like, think historically I'd be like, yeah, that's a thing that needs to happen, but didn't see it as heavy, didn't see it as labor and is really easy to be like, yeah, like we'll figure it out Saturday, but not see the actual effort required to like execute on that. So.

 

Yeah.

 

Yeah. You know, Zach, what I'm thinking too, as you're saying that with popping in my head too, is when you're practicing that, like you said, empathy is a skill. So for all our listeners, that is true. It's something you actually have to work at. So when kids are born, they aren't naturally empathetic. They're thinking about themselves. And actually when we actually slip down in our brain and are getting very upset, you'll notice you just think about yourself too. And that's kind of where we get into this immature place.

 

So I was just even thinking about how Sara and I have unintentionally done some of this work when it comes to like each of our kids, like when we're traveling with them, for instance, like one kid, the mental load of travel may not be that heavy, but to the other kid, it's a lot heavier. Like, you know, to our son, he thinks about all these different details that maybe my daughter doesn't think about. So you can see just even the wear and tear.

 

of being away from home and traveling to other places takes its toll on different people in the family. And if you're getting better and better, just first, whoever's listening this, just start, like Zach is saying, first with yourself. Like first raise your awareness of what's happening on in you, and then start to try to step into your spouse's world, just by asking some of those curious questions that you were talking about, using some of that language that you're discussing.

 

But then the next step for me is actually I get more more empathetic with my wife, then start translating to the kids. Like Sara was saying, our daughter's in this musical and sometimes that's a great experience. Other times it's disappointing to her. She's thinking about all these other things. And when she gets in the car after a musical rehearsal and she wants to share all of that mental load, the tendency is to think.

 

I'm just going to tune out and think about all the people I was working with today. Like it's easy to just like tune it out and act like you're there, but then you're not really taking the load right and really that's yeah.

 

Thank

 

Yeah, and I would say that's like validating somebody's experience. I would call that emotional labor. So pausing, acknowledging that it's gonna take something to be with this person, especially if there's, you know, a complaining nature to it. Validate some feelings, help extract what those emotions are that they're experiencing so that they can validate and regulate them. Like I would call that

 

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm, yeah.

 

Mm -hmm.

 

Yes. Yeah.

 

emotional labor and I think the mental load in a moment like that be like, okay, supper is in 15 minutes, I have this thing in the oven. And I know I'm to need to stay locked into this conversation. I need to preface this saying, Hey, honey, in five minutes, I need to do this so that I can stay present with you. So like the logistical thinking around that to make sure that you can keep the safe space of doing the emotional labor.

 

Yeah.

 

Yes. Yeah.

 

Yeah. Mm -hmm.

 

That's a distinction right there of the difference between cognitive versus emotional labor.

 

Yeah, that's good. That's good. you Zach, I want everybody who's listening, if they want to know more about what you're doing, how they connect to you, please tell them where they can find you and learn more about what your work is.

 

Yeah, I say if you just want to see free content, I think my my top places in serum, real Zach's ZACH think share. And if you want to participate in the September or October challenge is in the free community. Also share link there within the school platform. The September one, they're going to have the opportunity to win a $200 date night with their partner for whoever.

 

Nice. Yes. Yeah.

 

Whoever posts the most mental load that they acknowledge that their partner experiences, really looking forward to seeing what people do. You can do a max of four posts a day, because I'm sure some of my guys that really want it are gonna go after it. They'll have to at least beat, I promised to do 21 posts, so they'll have to do at least 21 to earn it, or else I'm just doing a $200 date night for myself. But I'm sure someone will beat me.

 

Yes.

 

Nice. Is this just for guys or women as well?

 

So I think the guys are the ones that, mean, when I think about emotions and acknowledgement of mental, like women might not have the language for it for the most part, but like they're doing a lot more of it. So I'm really working on having the guys get it. That's kind of my mission is helping, you know, a couple of hundred thousand recovering man child to enter, enter the phase of recovery and seeing it. But I think, you know, for Mother's Day, that was one of my gifts was just a list of acknowledgement of

 

Yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

Here, let's say these are all the things I did 60 day challenge for myself and I documented it of like every day I tried to acknowledge one thing that she was carrying that day and sharing that list of 60 things with her. She started crying. She felt super heard and validated. if you want, even if you don't win the date night, you get want to help you build probably the best gift that you could do for free. So yeah, join the community, get get the reps in.

 

Yeah, yeah. And then also if they wants to know more about the fair play book and there's also a game, right? They can just go to Amazon, find all that stuff there.

 

Yeah, I'm careful to call it a game. It's marketed as a game. I would call it a conversation starter. And I think that conversation starter is looking at all the things in around the home that that labor is being done for and practicing having conversations around it, which is when people need support, they're finding themselves really emotional. That's what I hope to.

 

Okay.

 

Great. Well, Zach, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. We really appreciate you sharing this and we definitely have some work to do, right? Right. We've got some, we've got some conversations to have after this, especially after our conversation with Paige and then on top of you of like, dang, I need to have some more conversations with Sara about this. And I know it's going to benefit our kids exponentially the more we understand this between each other and then hand it off to them. like you said,

 

then when they are parents, this is a no brainer. Our daughters will automatically be talking like this. Our son will automatically be jumping in. So we really appreciate the work you're doing and wanna encourage everybody to go see his stuff. Great content, it's fun, it's funny, it's engaging, but it will also make you think and really cause change in your life as well. So thank you, Zach.

 

Thank you. Appreciate it.