Episode 145

Have you ever wanted to know what's going on in your kid's mind? I'm sure you've been so curious about peeking in their brain and wondering how they think about you, how they think about their life, about...

about school and all the big choices they've got to make. I know Sarah and I have asked ourselves many times, like, what is our teenager thinking or why is our teenager doing that? And I, that's why I wanted to introduce you today to our guests, Dr. Cam, who AKA the teenage translator, she has spent thousands and thousands of hours with teenagers and getting into their brain.

and understanding why they do what they do. And so today she is going to give you a peek into their minds and it is going to illuminate your relationship with your kid, give you hope on creating an even better relationship with them and really kind of understand what they want from us as parents. And she's gonna not only talk about the book she's currently writing and it's gonna be an awesome book, but she's also gonna give you clear steps on how to

create that deeper, more intimate, more meaningful relationship with your teenager so you can have a longer lasting connection into adulthood. So we look forward to this conversation. You're going to love it. She's so great at telling stories and illuminating these mysterious subjects that lots of us just throw our hands about. So take a moment if you could to pause to rate, review the podcast. All that stuff helps more more families.

be have access to the podcast, go check us out on YouTube too at Art of Raising Humans. YouTube, you can see us on video as we're talking to Cam as well. And we would love to have you join us over there. So get ready for this very insightful conversation. 

Hello and welcome to the Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. Hi, I'm Sarah. And Sarah, know, so many parents that we help coach and talk to and work with, they want to know what in the world is going on with their teenager's mind. Yeah, those teen years are super hard for the parent and the teen. Yeah, it's super confusing. You think you know them and then they become a teenager. teenager so you think, I've got this. I was a teenager. remember how terrible parents are. That's right. And so,

We wanted to bring to our listeners a fantastic guest. Her name is Dr. Cameron Caswell, more commonly known as Dr. Cam or AKA the Teen Translator. And we wanted her to come on and help our listeners better understand the crazy mind of the teenager. So welcome Dr. Cam.

Thank you guys. Thanks, Kyle and Sarah. So happy to be here.

And so I want to start out with just why do you love teenagers? Like how did you get into this work and why do you want to delve into that messy part of life?

Yeah, that's such a good question. I don't even know. You know, it's one of those things that you just kind of start falling into. honestly, when I was first was getting my PhD, I taught a class in adolescent psychology and I just loved it so much because I related to it. My teen, my teen self is still very much alive. For all it's good and bad.

But the other thing that just really drew me to it was I kept having parents coming up to me because I taught an evening class and was saying, my gosh, what I'm learning here is changing everything with my relationship with my teenager. Why didn't I know this sooner? And I just was like, why don't we? Why don't we know this? And then all of a sudden at work and I had a desk job, you know, and people started knowing that I was teaching this class and they would come up and ask me questions about their teens.

And I would give them some insight and they come back later and go, my gosh, that changed everything. And I was like, I love this. Then I started mentoring teens and using that knowledge to really relate to them and thought, my God, these kids, there's so much depth and passion and emotion and just vision and dreams in these kids that we often overlook because we see them as teenagers.

and we kind of label them and we put them in this box and we miss these human beings. And so all of this kind of just broadened. was like, this is where I belong. 

You know, she sounds hopeful about teenagers. She sounds like, so I wanna ask you, I know for a lot of people, especially our comments on Facebook and Instagram, I'm sure you get this too, is like, man, these teenagers these days, they have no respect. They've got, there's all this negativity about it. And of course we know when you look at the research, that's what every generation said about teenagers. even, yes, there's some quotes.

Yes, every single one. There's actually a quote attributed to Socrates. I don't know if it actually is. It might be made up. I mean, it's on the internet, but nonetheless, you are absolutely right. Every single, every single generation and the teenagers have only like the idea of a teenager has only been around since the 1930s. It didn't even exist before then. 

Yes, of course. 

Yeah. 

Mm-hmm.

this age group all together into one location in the high school. Nowhere else in the world are we stuck with just people our age and said, okay, because you're this age, you all have to do the exact same thing and know the exact same stuff. Humans don't work that way. So we created this demographic and now we're like, we hate this demographic. Well, we created it.

Yeah.

Yes, and how are you hopeful about it? Like what are you seeing in your work with teenagers that brings you hope, that makes you excited about these years, that and the hope when they grow into adults.

There's so much because they're at the age where they're learning who they are. And that is such an exciting age. They're asking questions that we've stopped asking. So a lot of times, one of the things I see is we look at it as defiance or disrespect when they start questioning what we believe. And what I have found is when we were their age, we questioned a lot of these things. And then we started just accepting and settling.

and becoming this whatever it is. And we stopped questioning and change comes from questioning. Like if we just all accept what it is. And so as parents, we end up defending what we already believe most of the time. And when you stop and you listen and you start asking the same questions and you start trying to answer those questions, you realize I don't actually have a good answer for that. That's actually a really good question. And so all of a sudden they can expand your mind.

Right? They can really make you think. They also just, their view of life, they're learning things for the first time. So their vision of the world is much more excited. Like, this is all new. This is cool. Look at all these opportunities in front of me when we're kind of like, look at all the opportunities behind us or that we missed. Right? So there's just so much hope for what the world can be when you talk to these kids and when you listen to them. 

Totally. Yes.

without prejudging who they are, without the expectation of that. You find that these kids are hopeful and they have huge dreams and they just want to be heard and accepted and loved for who they are so badly. And every single one of them wants a better relationship with their parent, but they don't believe they can because they already feel like they're a disappointment. And it's just...

It's phenomenal. It's phenomenal. And I have a teen daughter, she's 18 now and just watching her blossom into this really competent adult is so cool and kind and thoughtful. And just the type of person she's becoming is just, it's astounding to me. I think it's just the coolest stage ever. And we miss it because we're fearful and we have preconceived judgments. 

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you just said so much there. My brain has a thousand thoughts. That's so, so good. Just that right there. We're done. That's good. Just pull it over. but I love, I remember hearing when, I can't remember which business it is, but when they want creativity, you go to the teenagers, you go to the young people cause their brain isn't fixed. And so if you need to think of something and you can't solve a problem, go to the young people because

They're just, not in, they don't have those walls built. Now we have to work so hard to try to bust through to have some creative thought, but they're just full of them and they have viewpoints that we can't even, we're not there anymore. And I thought that was so fascinating, but okay. So I want to jump into as the parent.

No!

And we're thinking, this is great. My child's creative. My child's exploring who they are. So many possibilities. mean, this is, this is great. And I'm terrified because where do I, I stand on the sidelines watching this. And what if I see it going really wrong or I can, I can see this is going to go wrong for them. Or I'm so scared. And how do I know when do I step in? When do I just stand and watch? How do we navigate?

what part to play in trying, know, do we just stand all the way back? You know, how do we do that?

It's such a good question and probably the biggest question I get all the time. And one of the things that drives parents nuts is one of my biggest kind go-tos is less is more. And as parents, we want to do more. When we see something, our go-to is to do more. We step in more, we solve more, we fix, we do all the more, more, more. Like, what more can I do? And most of the time with teenagers, it's what less can you do? 

Yeah, yeah.

What can you step away? And when you think of it this way, our teenagers right now are, one of the other really cool things about teens is their brain is at the big growth spurt. It will never be this malleable, this open to learning ever again. And so to learn, we do. We make mistakes, we correct, we redo. So if we're constantly stepping in and we're doing for our kids,

We are taking away the most important opportunity in their life to learn it for themselves. It's also the safest time because now when they make mistakes, guess what? You're there not to fix it, but to encourage them to say, you've got this, to make sure they feel confident in themselves. When we step in and we take that away, but also what we do is we take their confidence away. We say, 

Mm-hmm.

We're going to do it because we don't trust that you can. And man, that's defeating. No, they can't right now. Absolutely. There's things that they cannot do because they haven't learned how. Not because they're incompetent, because they haven't learned how. They're very competent in learning. So give them a chance to learn. So I always tell parents the kindest thing that you can do for your kids is to give them the opportunity to fail without fear of judgment. 

Yeah. 

Mm-hmm.

without coming down going, see, I told you so, if you had just done what I said. The other thing is as parents, we often go, and I get it, we've had a lot of life experience, we've seen the direction things go often, right? So we go, we know how this is going to turn out. No, we don't. We don't know how it's going to turn out. We could jump in and change it and it could turn out horribly because we're pushing it in a direction that they don't want to go. 

Yes. Yep.

So if we let them, we don't know where it's going to go. It could go somewhere great. We just go to fear. If we don't know, we go to worst case. I always say when our kids are out there and they're not coming home, suddenly there's ditches everywhere. When I drive, I never see a ditch. I never see a ditch. But yet they're everywhere and our kid is in it when they're not home. Right? So I think we just have to realize that it is our kid's life. 

Yeah. 

Yes, I know.

Our job is not to tell them how to live it. Our job is not to control it. It's not ours. We had our chance. We still have our chance with our stuff. It's our kids' life. And so we need to help them live their life by supporting them, by helping them learn the skills, which the best way is modeling it, not by telling it. That's what we're there for. That's our job. It's hard. 

You know, I'd love your thoughts on this, Dr. Kammer. Something that I suggest a lot is with parents and their kids growing up, when they're in that sixth, seventh, eighth grade type time, is I really want them to practice what you're saying with academics. know, that the academics is such an easy way to be able to go, this education is not the parents, it's the kids. So this is a very practical way for you to do less is more.

right? Like you're saying, and to give them opportunities to fail. And it seems like what when I'm talking to parents about shifting it, they only see either they're on top of it, they're constantly checking the grades every day. They're email texting the kid if there's any missed assignments, they're they're looking I mean, it's like a daily thing, like the parent looks at it way more than the kid does. And then and then the parents are trying to incentivize, you know, reward them for good grades or punish them for bad grades. And they they're trying to do this all the way through their senior year. And I'm telling them,

into college. 

Yeah, and I'm telling them like the sooner you can just sit down with your kid, look at the classes they have and ask the kid, what grades do you want to make? And then how can I help you achieve those grades? And then maybe ask if it helps you, how often could I meet with you to just see how you're progressing in those areas, right? So maybe weekly we just have a little sit down where you kind of tell me places you're struggling, your place you're doing well, but I'd love your thoughts on that to see if you think that's a.

an avenue you would advise or if you would tweak that a little bit because I feel like that's a good first step for parents start to back away without judgment, without you kind of facing the fear but also letting go of it. But we'd love to hear your opinion.

Kyle, I could talk to you so long about this. have so many opinions, but here I agree with you, but let me address the fact that parents are immediately going to say, and I know this because parents tell me this daily, if I step back, they're going to fail. And you know what? Yes, they might fail. And here's the thing that I'm struggling with with school right now, Sarah and Kyle, is that right now it's almost the parents that have to do the schoolwork. 

Yeah. 

Yes, of course, yeah.

 

and the parents are incentivizing and we're sitting there going, what's wrong with our teenager that they're not doing this instead of what's wrong with the system that every single teenager hates school. If school is there for them and they hate it, then why it's not there for them. So we're trying,  

Yes. Yeah.

is straight A's. First of all, no one is an expert in every single field and they're being compared to kids their age once again. And we all learn at different paces. So all of a sudden you're like, just because you were born at this date, you're supposed to be able to do all this stuff the same as everyone else. No, that's ridiculous. We have certain skills that we're good at. We have certain skills that we don't care about. And so we're kind of forced into this generic box that they' 

belling against. And I see this as a rebellion, which people see it as rebellion, disrespect. I see it as kids going online and saying, my gosh, everyone else hates school too. We need to say something. We need to do something about this. And then we're going to do it by saying, I'm not going because they don't have any other, they're not listened to. They're just shut down. So now they're rebelling by just not doing it. 

Yeah. Yep. 

I'm not gonna do, this is stupid. I don't get it. This isn't any interest in mine. And we as parents go, but if you don't, you're not gonna get into a good school. And if you don't get into a good school, you're not gonna get a good job. And if you don't get a good job, you're gonna be miserable your whole life. And these parents are the ones that are miserable in their job. 

Yes. And the kids will say that. The kids will say, you mean my reward is to do what you do? Go to work every day and hate it?

Yeah, I don't want your life. I don't want your life. And what's funny is we rebelled against that growing up too. And we're like, we don't want your life. And all of a sudden we were just force, force, force, force, and now we're in that life. And now we're like, well, you got to do this life too. And we need change. Right. We need change. So again, I'm not going to change the system in the world right now. And I get it. Yes. I am. I got my PhD for fun. Yes. I'm all about education. I get it. Like I love it. 

Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Suck it up and get that life. Yep. 

Yes.

But that's me. I love it. Not everyone does. But here's the thing, and I'm going to say this with a daughter who has failed many classes. It is not my grade. It is not my education. It is not my opportunity to learn. It is 100 % hers. And what I have seen is when she does that, there's no repercussions on my standpoint because she has the F and she's doing great. I am here to help her study. 

Yep. Yep. 

Yeah.

I am here to help her. And here's what I'm learning. She is finding things that she loves and she excels in those things that she loves and she puts in so much time and so much focus and so organized and so motivated in the things she loves. That's what I care about. When she loves it and she wants to do it, she has drive. I know she does and she can do it really well. When she doesn't, 

Yeah. Yeah.

she figures out what she needs to do to get through. 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And kids are, you hear all the time. I remember saying this when I was a kid, I'm never going to use this. I'm never going to use this in real life. And it's true. We worked so hard. I was with a bunch of other adults trying to, they were trying to figure out where to prove to their kids. They might use algebra too in real life, you know?

where so they're just working so hard to find the one random time unless it's your career you know there's a few of us who would use it exactly the rest of us know how many you go back through history science all that stuff how much does anyone remember of what they learned yeah and yet we spend so much time on it yeah

Well, here, and this is what's so, so interesting to me too, is we, we complain about how much time our kids spend playing games on their phone, doing social media. And I'm going to be honest with you, there's more jobs out there now. Play, building games, social media on the phone than there is using algebra too. So we sit there going, you can't do, you can't. 

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

do this, you gotta focus on this to prepare for the future when actually this is preparing them for the future more than this. YouTube teaches you so many cool things that you can go learn that you wanna do and we're saying you can't spend waste time doing YouTube, you've gotta go study this ancient Greece gods, whatever, I don't remember, I learned them all, right? You've gotta go learn this and... 

I know, yes. Yeah.

It's just interesting to me because when we look at it and we go, our kids are lazy, our kids are motivated, they're not motivated to do what we want them to do. But man, when they want to do it, they are extremely motivated. And when we take what motivates them away to do what they hate as a punishment for not doing what they hate doesn't motivate them to do what they hate more. It gives them way less joy in life.

Yes, I know, I know.

And I see these kids that are just miserable because every day they wake up, they go to school, they hate their school. The school tells them what to do, when to do it, how to do it. You can't talk. You can't do this. Then they come home and they're forced to do their homework. Do this. Go to this. Go. Every single day of their life is told what they should do and what they shouldn't do and what they should do is not what they want to do. And so they're like, I'm wasting my teen years. Miserable. 

Well, even like you said, we just talked about how their brain is in such this unique space of creativity, of learning new things, of exploring who they are. And then that's what I find is the push. They're pushing against a system that is saying, no, do what I want you to do and explore the things I want you to explore. And so they literally are missing out on those. I know Sarah and I were just having a conversation yesterday of just, wasn't even to our twenties or thirties where we even allowed ourselves to even go,

What do I want to do? We kind of just did the next thing we were told to do, right? And even though that brought some success and there was some enjoyment in those things, it wasn't all just drudgery. As we're raising our kids, we're really like, we want to capitalize on these teenage years to help them better fine tune.

the knowing of themselves, the knowing of what do I like to do? And it doesn't mean you're never gonna do things you don't enjoy. That's to be what a parent's here is like, then the kid never has to do anything hard. And it was like, no, like I think that journey is hard. think finding out what you want to do in life is a hard journey. Yes.

It's so hard and there's so much pressure on them to know exactly what to do and how to do it and build their resume and do all of this stuff. you know, a lot of the kids I talked to are doing so much and the reason they're doing so much, not because they love it, because they have to to get into the right school. And so they're not. And I think the other things that's interesting is we've got certain lessons that we've been taught to teach our kids.

And so we sit there teaching one of them and this one's a hard one is not to quit. Here's the struggle I have with that. I see kids that have been playing soccer for their whole life. They hate it. And their parents are like, you can't quit. I'm not going to let you quit. You've got to do hard things. like, but they could be doing something that they love right now, but you're teaching them that they have to stick to something they hate rather than saying it's time to walk away. 

Mmm, yeah. Yeah.

and try to find something else. And we have a culture that sticks out, miserable jobs, miserable marriages, miserable things, because we're told not to quit. But how do you learn when it's quitting and how do you learn when it's being smart and walking away? We got to teach them that. It's a skill. 

Yeah. 

Yeah, yeah, because that is a skill. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'd love you, Dr. Kim. I'd love for you to give kind of like you're doing right there. Give a glimpse of the teenager's mind.

You know, like you're spending time every day with teenagers. You're hearing their thoughts about, and I know we as parents feel like we know what they're thinking. We can read their minds, but we're all, if we're honest, we don't know what the crap's going on in there. And it can be so confusing because like we were talking before this recording, there are things that you think, we've got that figured out. And then it seems like now we don't. Like I thought we had that settled. Or this whole dance that goes on of like, yeah, I'm supposed to like pursue you.

and run after you, but also give you independence. And the kids at one point loves hanging out with you and the other time hates hanging out with you. So if you could give us kind of a glimpse, what is it our teenagers are wanting us to know? What's going on up there? What glimpses have you gotten that would be just like pearls for these parents?

Yeah. So, and the reason again, I feel confident saying this is I have talked to thousands of teenagers and I hear the same things over and over and over again. And one of them is they do want a better relationship with their parents, but they want it on their terms, not their parents' terms. And so what happens is we say we want to spend time as parents with our kids, but then we tell them how they have to behave.

what they're supposed to say, what is a good way to spend time, what is a bad way to spend time. To put it bluntly, we're not fun to hang out with. We suck to hang out with. Most of the time it turns into some sort of lecture or showing disappointment or something. Why would I want to hang out with you if you're going to dictate how I'm supposed to be and how I'm supposed to hang out? That sucks. 

Yeah.

They want to hang out with you so badly, but they want also for you to get it and accept them and understand that what is important to you is not important to them. And just because it's not important to you doesn't make it important. So things like chores, let me just tell you this. Yes, you're going to have to remind your child to do chores over and over again. You know why? Because they could care less.

Who cares? I have so many things on my mind that are far more important to me. Like what is my friend thinking of me? Like, do I have the right hair supply? I mean, I don't know. It sounds stupid to us, but it's so important to them. And they're thinking about that. They're not thinking, do I need to take the trash out? They're not trying to be difficult by not taking the trash out. They haven't thought of it. Well, I've told them a hundred times.

Yeah, yeah, you might have the right style, the right clothes. Yeah. Yes.

Yes, you have. And they've told you a hundred times what's important to them and you haven't heard it.

Right? So I think we gotta understand if we want our kids to do chores, then we gotta make it something where it's not a punishment. It's we do it together. My daughter and I do the dishwasher together because we both hate it. I don't know why. It's not that hard, but we hate it. So we do it together, right? There's things that we just, I want her to learn that it's part of what we do, but I don't need her to like it.

I don't have to convince her to like it or convince her to remember. I just remind her because I'm like, I know it matters to me. I know it doesn't matter to her. It's okay. One day it might when she has her own house. It probably will. It didn't matter to me when it was my mom's house. It matters to me now that it's mine. Right? So I think we've got to understand if we want to spend time with our kids, we got to spend time with them on their terms. If they spend all their time gaming, ask them about their games.

Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah. Watch them. Yeah.

play the games with them. You might realize they're so hard. my god, I'm terrible at them. I can remember my nephew teaching me world. He was so excited when my sister and I decided we were going to learn World of Warcraft, which he's older now. So that's what he was playing. He built our avatars for us. He did this whole thing. You know, 

Yes, yes. 

cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

nice.

And I feel so bad because I sat there just like hopping into a wall the whole time. I could not move forward. I was so bad. My sister on the other hand stayed up till 3 a.m. playing because she got stuck into the game and was like, I get why this is so addictive. I get this. So I think we need to understand their worlds. We can' 

Wow. Wow. Yes.

technology, the enemy, and I see this with a lot of parents, the phone is enemy number one. I'm like, you're done with your kid at that point because you're not going to win. Because you know what? Today, their phone is everything. That's not a bad thing. We need to set healthy limits with them, but if it's our enemy, we're not going to teach them healthy limits. 

Yes, yep, yep. 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Of course. Yeah.

The biggest mistake parents make, I'm just gonna throw this little tip in there, the biggest mistake parents make with the phone and gaming is using it as a bargaining chip, either as a reward or as a punishment. Do not use technology as a reward or as a punishment because now we are the ones establishing an unhealthy relationship with it. 

Yes. And if they have to choose, they probably say, well, I choose it over you. So why create that situation?

Because it's their friends, it's their entertainment, it's their music, it's their, it's everything. And I think we, we sit there and we use it. And I'm going to be honest again, we use it as a tool to manipulate them to do what we want. That's what we're doing. We're saying, fine, if you're not going to do what I want, I'm going to take away something that you love to make you do what I want rather than understanding why you don't want to do it. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, yeah, I was just to add to that. I tell parents all the time, if you want them to care more about the phone than you, then keep doing that because you're basically saying, I don't think the relationship with me matters as much to you as the relationship with the phone. And so you're actually buying into that theory and that dance by doing that. And then the kid will go, yeah, I do care more about the phone than you. And so now everybody's in agreement that the phone is more important than the relationship. Yeah. So in the midst of this parenting journey with teens,

I mean, I think we keep talking about all of these different power struggles. And I think as a parent, you, can feel so lost then like, what, what do I do? What if something really does need to be done or what if there is something I need to talk to them about? And I can't, it just can't be like free for all. I understand what you want and you get to do it. You know, so, so what do, how do I do that? And in a helpful way, if I don't try to just control them or how do I do that? Yeah.

Sarah, this is so good because most of the time, I'm sure you see this, most of the time by the time parents come to me, they're in that place. It is now an emergency. Something is very bad. And we have very little positive influence with our kids if we don't have any trust or connection with them. Why would they trust what you say if you haven't spent time understanding and learning who they are, if you don't accept them for who they are? 

Yeah. 

Why would they trust that? So now I'm in an emergency and now I'm controlling more and more and more and more is what I'm trying to do. And I'm getting more pushback because the control is the very reason they're pushing back. So we just keep piling on more of why they're doing what they're doing. And it keeps getting worse and parents just can't. So parents struggle when they come to me because the first thing I ask them to do is to let go and step back and start connecting with their kids. 

Mm-hmm.

And they're like, I can't connect with them because then it's saying that I'm okay with what they're doing. Like, no, you don't have to say you're okay with what they're doing. You need to separate them from the choices that they're making. Because right now you're defining them by their choices and all your communication is around all the things they're doing bad. And that's it. You've got to step back and you've got to find the good in your kid. And there's tons of it. And I've had parents that say, I can't list one positive thing about my kid. And I'm like, well, you know what? 

Exactly. Yeah. 

Yeah. 

I know. Yeah. Yep.

That's the problem then. Not your kid. Kid has lots of positive things. The fact that you can't see one of them is the problem. So we got to step back and we got to find those. So they are in such a panic, but I can't, there's too much I got to do. And I said, the longer you keep trying to control and push, the longer you're delaying doing anything and having any positive influence. This is the urgency of you needing to connect with your kid. 

Yes. Yeah. 

Yeah.

Got to step back, do what that does that mean? I just let them do whatever right now. You know what? Yes. Because you doing this is not stopping it either. It wouldn't come to me if it was working. So yes, let's stop for a second and let's get that connection. Let's build that trust. And that's going to take a while because you just spent years killing that trust. So that's not going to be built overnight. 

Yeah. 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How do you do that when like, you know, lot of parents in the state, they won't talk to me, they don't want to spend time with me. Like they just go up in their room and like, so if you could give maybe that first step, what does the parent do if they feel like they're, you know, I invite them to things, they say no, every time, right? I asked, do you want to do this? You want to, no, I don't want to spend time with you at all. So what's something you might say, how could they get through that, that initial wall?

This is really tough and I think one of the things is you've got to be patient because again, when your teen says no, that is their boundary. And a lot of times parents, we were very focused on making sure our teens don't cross our boundaries, but we don't tend to have boundaries and allow our kids to set their own boundaries. And when we don't let them do that,

they start saying no more and more and more because they're trying to establish a boundary. And if we keep stepping over it, they're gonna keep pushing, pushing, pushing. So the first thing we need to do is be patient. We've gotten ourselves there, not our teens. We got it, we got it, just accept that. It's not our teens being jerks. It's our teens dealing with the situation that they're in the best that they can. And I'm not saying parents are jerks either, they're not. 

Yeah.

We have done everything the right way. We've done everything the way we know best, but we've ended up here, which means we've gone down a path that we didn't want to go down. That's all there is to it. We just have. That's okay. Just acknowledge it. I'm down where I don't want to be and I got to backtrack now. And this is going to take a while because I'm way, I'm miles down the wrong path and I got to go miles back to start from scratch. Right? So we got to be patient. So

We need to keep showing up for our kids, first of all. And this is so hard because rejection hurts. And when our kids reject us, it's hurt. But let's remember our kids are here because they've been felt rejected by us over and over and over again. They wouldn't be there if they hadn't felt rejected by us. End of story. So we're going to have to take a little bit of rejection now too. So we got, we just got to suck it up and we got to say, you know what? What do I want more?

Do I want more to protect my ego or do I want more to have a relationship with my child? It's an honest question and you may check ego. Some do, many do. But if you want an honest relationship with your child, you got to check your ego right now. You don't have to be right. You don't have to always, they're not responsible for how you feel. It's not their job. They're not, you're not actually responsible for how they feel either. You just aren't, right?

So we've now got to go, okay, I need to deal with feeling rejected right now because my teen is trying to set boundaries and they feel not safe letting me in right now. So now I'm going to step back and now I'm going to meet them where they're at and I'm going to keep reaching out, but I'm going to keep respecting the boundary when they say no. And then I'm going to keep reaching out and I'm going to keep respecting that boundary. And I'm going to look for those positive moments that we have and I'm going to enjoy those. 

Yeah.

Because what often happens too is we miss when they reach out to us because we see it as them rejecting us. And they will continue to reach out to you too. 

Yeah. Yeah. I almost see it as like them saying, how, how much will you keep trying? You know, how easy will you give up? And so like the two words that Sarah and I talk a lot about what teenagers is we try to tell the parents, pursue and understand. Those are the two things that kids want you to do. Keep running after them, but seek to understand your whole goal. Once you get to them is just to understand them. And if you keep doing that, it will pay off. Now it's risky. It takes a lot of vulnerability.

And like you said, you might be hurt at times, but they want to know, do you think they're worth it? Do you think they're worth it to keep coming after them?

Yeah. Now I want to, I want to step in with something too, because this is, I'm hearing my, always hear my clients' voices in my head. It keeps me up at night. But one of the things I'm hearing right now is that this feels like you're giving your teen all the power. And what if they manipulate me? Right? Let's address that. Because it, it, it, 

Yeah, it's okay. Do it. 

does feel like that. But once again, we're here because we have, our teen is trying to gain back some power because that's what they need to do. So one of the things I always tell parents, this is not about letting go of your boundaries either. This is not about letting them walk all over you. You need to also set your own boundaries, but boundaries are what you do, not what you expect others to do for you. Everyone, 

Yeah, yeah.

Boundaries are so fickle, boundaries change. We don't even know our own boundaries till they're crossed. No one else is going to know our boundaries. So our job is to understand what our boundaries are and notice what they are and protect those. So if you feel like you're being walked all over or manipulated by your team, that's not a moment to get mad at your team. That's a moment to go, if I'm feeling manipulated, then I'm letting them cross over a boundary of mine. What is that? 

And how do I protect that? Where do I stop? So I often tell parents, do as much as you feel comfortable doing because you're their parent and you want to connect. But if you start resenting your teen, you're not doing anyone any favors. And it's not your teens fault that you resent them at this point. That means your boundary has been crossed and you need to step back and go, I've gone too far for me. It's okay. But that' 

my teen doesn't do this, my teen doesn't do that, my teen doesn't respect me, my teen... Then you have gone too far for you. That's all I can say. 

Yeah, yeah. And actually your teen wants you to do that. Your teen wants you to have a healthy relationship. So when you continue to let those boundaries be crossed, it turns into the toxic thing. Yeah. I don't know if you've heard that one definition that Sarah and I really enjoy of boundaries, which is it's the distance between me and you that allows me to still love me and still love you. And so I'd like to that definition because

Yeah, they won't respect you if you don't respect yourself either.

It really is you're doing the boundaries because you value you, but you also value them. And so every time the parent is able to set those healthy boundaries with the kid, it's actually a loving act and the kid will feel loved by it. And if you, every time you let them cross it, it's like an unloving thing to them and you to where you're both kind of dehumanizing each other and not really raising the value. Now you're in the process of writing a book.

And we really wanted you to tell that they get kind of first dibs on hearing the title and kind of the content. Tell us a little bit about the book that you're writing and what they can expect.

Yeah, so I am neck deep into this book. It is called Teens Are Not Assholes. And this is really based off of what I see on social media. I see people calling their own kids assholes a lot and getting lots of likes. I've had clients say my teen is being an asshole. And the problem with that is that as soon as we have that view of our teen, 

Yes!

Everything that our team does is going to be translated through that view that they are an asshole and they're not any more than we are they're doing the best they can and When we switch our mindset and this is one of the things that I think because you see all this like parenting styles What do you what's your parenting style? What do you do? We're going this way We're always going back and forth pendulum and here's the reason why we keep going back and forth Because our view hasn't changed and our goal hasn' 

Our view is that our teens need to be fixed and our goal is to fix them. And so we look at, I control them to fix them or do I step back and let them do it, but I still have the idea that whatever I do is going to be used to get them to do what I want them to do. So I'm just trying to find what gets them to do what I want them to do. We're going to fail every time because that's not our job. 

Our job is not to get them to do what we want them to do. Our job is to teach them. Our job is to guide them. Our job is to help them think critically. Our job is to support them and lift them up when they're feeling down. Our job is not to, they're not remote control cars. I tell parents, I'm like, when you're frustrated with your teen, it's because you're playing with the joystick and they're not doing what you're trying to do. Yeah. Yeah. 

100%. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. 

Yeah.

Yes.

So they're not. And so the more you try to control them, the more they are going to push back because you have stepped over your boundary. And that's the hard part. 

Yeah. Nobody, nobody likes to be controlled and somehow we forget that that includes children and teenagers. It doesn't feel good and we all need and want power. know? And so we're constantly kind of moving and stripping them of any power, trying to control them. And of course they're going to, some point and they're, they're going to say, I don't like that. I don't want that. And they're going to, because they need power. want, well, but even to that point, Sarah, when I have power and control, I'm less anxious. I'm less depressed.

Yeah. 

I feel more excited about my future. And that's why the kid wants power and control because they're trying to create a future for themselves. And that's why they're so anxious and depressed because they feel like they don't have any. They feel like everybody's telling them what the future has to be. And they're, looking at it and going, I don't think I want that future. I think I want a different one. parent is scared and that's why they're trying to control. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Fear, there's so much fear and I am gonna, I get that. There is so much fear, but when we parent out of fear and we try to protect our kids from everything we fear, we are completely isolating and containing and controlling them and making them so small that the fear that we have, they're actually not developing the skills they need to be resilient.

face failure, to push forward, we're preventing them from building the very skills they need to not fall into what we're fearing they're going to fall into. And that's a really hard thing. 

And to bring it full circle, the fear is they're going to be homeless and in a ditch. Am I right? Yes. So where can our listeners, if they want to get more Dr. Cam information, where can they find it?

Yeah, exactly.

The best ways go to my website, which is askdrcam.com. It's got everything there. I've got my own parenting podcast, which you guys are going to be on very soon. can't wait. Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam. And I've got my social media at DrCamCaswell. I'm on there daily giving tips. So those are probably the best ways to get my insights. I love this stuff. I can talk about it for days.

Yes, yes, awesome. Woohoo! Yep, 

Yes. Yeah. I will. And we're so glad that you gave us time to come on and talk to our listeners because we hope, and I'm sure a hundred percent this happened. Anybody listening as a teenager feels more excited and more hopeful about the relationship, no matter where it's at, that it can get better because at the heart of it, what I hear you saying and what we know from experiences, these teenagers want it. They want it. They want a good relationship with you.

that they actually don't want this relationship to suck and go down the drain. you already have that for you. It's not like they're just a stranger. They're like somebody who in their DNA, they're like, I wish this would get better. And I know you've helped some teenagers in some really hard relationships with their parents. And I know almost a hundred percent of them have said to me, I want this to be fixed. I would like it to get better. So I hope every listener got that message from you and got those tips to better understand what's going on in their head.

And so definitely go check out Dr. Cam's work and be ready to buy that book. Teenagers are not assholes when that comes out and they're able to buy it. So thank you so much for your time. Yeah, thank you.

Thank you guys.