Episode 148

Episode 148 Transcript:

Sarah and I get the opportunity to interact with so many different types of parents. And so many parents come up to us with worries about maybe things they've noticed in their kids when they're young or even into the teenage years. And they're wondering, does this mean my kid might be ADHD or my kid might be autistic? And I think all of us at times have seen things in our kids that think, well, that's different or that's not something other kids seem to be doing. And maybe this worry or this fear comes in you of like, Uh-oh, if they do have that, how do I find out? What's the next step I need to take? Well, today we wanted to help with those questions. So we wanted to bring on an expert in this area. We wanted to bring on Holly Moses. She is the host of the podcast, the Autism ADHD Podcast. She has been working with neurodivergent kids for 27 years, has two neurodivergent kids herself.

and she is gonna spend this podcast sharing with you what those next steps are. If you have any concerns or any worries that your kids may need to go down that road, that maybe we should check this out, she will tell you exactly the steps to take. And she'll also give you some great suggestions on the resources that are out there to help you parent your kid well. So I hope you take a moment to join. If you don't have a kid who you think has these diagnoses or anything, I'm sure you know other parents who do, please share this with them because this is going to be chock full of knowledge that is going to fill them with hope. It's going to encourage them and going to equip them to be able to parent their kid no matter what diagnosis they might have. So before you jump into it, take a moment, please to pause, review the podcast, take a moment to leave a comment. We'd love to hear back from you. And if you have any questions about neurodivergent kids that we could ask Holly Moses in the future, just email me at Kyle at artofraisinghumans.com and we'll make sure we have her back on in the future to discuss some of those questions. So I hope you enjoy this episode.

Hello and welcome to the Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. Hi there, I'm Sarah. And Sarah, today we have a very special guest that's gonna talk about a very special population of kids. I mean, so far we're almost at 150 episodes and we've never had somebody specifically on... But we get requested all the time. Yes, yes. People are like, have you had somebody to talk about this? And we're like, no, not yet, but we'll get somebody on there. we wanted to bring on Holly Moses.to specifically have a chat with us about parenting kids that are neurodivergent, but specifically have ADHD, autism diagnosis, because there is a lot of similarities to just, know, parenting in general, a lot of over the, you're using the same skills, but there's a lot of unique things that come up in parenting that population. And think as a parent, you wonder, am I doing, is this gonna work? Am I doing the right thing? Yeah. So Holly, welcome. Thank you for coming on.

I'm so excited to chat with you both and to connect with your audience about this important topic.

Yeah.

Can I ask you first, how did you get so passionate about this? Like, why did you niche down and say, I want to help that group of kids?

No, I think that's such a good question. I don't remember when I didn't want to because I am 50. If you guys listen to the Autism ADHD podcast, you know, I've been talking about it for months. It's like this major milestone for me. And I remember even being in elementary school, just being so curious. Why, why did Leslie get in the gifted program?

Yeah, yeah. Yep.

And I didn't. Or why is this person have such an easy time making friends and I didn't. You know, I didn't understand these differences and I was just always fascinated wanting to know more because I knew I was different too. I just didn't know why at the time. And so then, you know, I grew up, noticed that

You know, there were even more differences in separations back in the day. That's why I brought up being my age because everybody was kind of separated back then. And so why were these other kids separated in these different classes from us? And I didn't think that was right. It didn't make sense to me. And it was almost like they were hidden from the rest of the school. And I just wanted to dive in.

Mmm, yes. Yeah.

and do work in that area. And so I kind of hit the ground running when I was a freshman in college and just took as many classes, did as much research as I could and just kept going.

Yeah, you know when you say that I remember I don't even remember there being other classes like you're saying Holly, but I remember becoming an elementary school counselor and I was seeing kids with some issues in class and I would talk to my principal and be like, man, what is the deal? Are schools just crazier now? And she's like, no, Kyle, they used to just take those kids away. Like those kids will be just put in a separate class. And then I realized as we talked to some kids, like as I was doing IEPs with teachers and parents that a lot of the parents man, they were very scarred by that. A lot of the parents would be like, I don't want my kid to be on an IEP because I'm afraid they'll do what they did to me. And I was like, whoa. So they had these like traumatic experiences in school where they were seen as somehow broken or messed up and they needed to be off in a different class away from the general population.

Absolutely. And even when they changed classes, they would do it at times where nobody else was in the hallways. And so there are just all kinds of questions that I had. And then I thought, OK, I need to learn more about this and see if there's anything that I can do.

Oh wow.

Yeah. Well, what kind of behaviors, you know, typically I know when we hear from parents, especially when the kids are little, they'll be thinking, man, I think my kid might have something going on. I, it's, you know, especially when it's their first born, they're like, I don't really know if I'm seeing this right. But what, what do you recommend to parents about when they should start? Like what issues should they be looking for or what things would be like, yeah, let's go get some testing done. What's, what's your thoughts on that?

No, that's a great question. And everybody is different. And just to let you know, it's never too late to. So even if you have a high schooler or even a young adult, you know, if there is something that you think, wow, you know, they've been really struggling. I want to know what I can do to help them learn more about themselves. When you're considering development.

Yeah.

Before the age of four, sometimes it can be really tricky, especially with ADHD, because all kids are really, really busy. They're very busy, and the kids that would meet criteria for severe ADHD are likely to be identified much earlier. So for instance, our children, we adopted them from foster care, and our youngest came to live with us when he was three, and we adopted him at six.

Yeah, I know they are. Yeah.

Hmm.

He has severe ADHD. you know, him in preschool is not going to be like anyone else that you're going to see in class. So it really depends on their level of need. You know, there may be some things that you noticed as far as wanting to play maybe a little separately or play certain things.

maybe social interactions can be kind of hard and maybe they have a hard time understanding space. And you know, that's the case for younger kids as well. But, you know, we'll see differences in sensory needs such as clothing, maybe food, specific foods that they'll eat, possibly.

Yep. Yep.

some repetitive movements. You that might be something that you notice. It might be hard for them to follow instructions, even one to two step instructions without forgetting what they're doing. So there's all kinds of different things that you may notice as a parent. And of course, parents know their kids. They're the experts of their kids. So I've heard many parents tell me, well, I've asked my pediatrician and they said they'll grow out of it.

or just come back in a couple years and we'll talk about it again. But parents know in their gut, is there something different that my child needs? And sometimes when it's not as obvious, teachers in kindergarten and up will start to notice because they have the lovely advantage of having so many kids in the class that are the same age. So they're able to see those differences too.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, was gonna say, so I hear that so many parents I talk to, if you're not sure your pediatrician is hearing you or, know, who, I have two questions, who do I go to? You know, who should I look to to say, hey, I just want some other ideas about this, some other eyes on this situation. And then also, can you speak to girls? And I'm seeing a live out.

You know, what do you, what's the differences there? What do you look for with girls?

Yes, I love those questions so much. So, parents trust your gut.

if a pediatrician says, pediatricians have to treat colds. have so many things that they have to do. So that's a lot to consider when that might not be their specialty. So it's a great idea to see a developmental pediatrician. They are particularly trained in the area of development. It also, if you're not ready for testing, it might be a good idea to meet with a psychologist who's

Yes. Yeah.

and supporting neurodivergent people and then you can see what their opinion might be and then take that information in and decide what you'd like to do. But as far as girls, Sarah, I love that you asked that question because girls are so close to my heart, they often go unidentified. And thank goodness, thank goodness things are so much better than they used to be.

Yeah.

But girls are often diagnosed with anxiety and depression before ADHD, before they're diagnosed as autistic. And that puts them in a really tough spot. And you can see how that can be really hard when you're moving through the world in a different way, but everyone expects you to move in the way they do.

Mm-hmm. Mm, okay. Yeah.

And when your journey looks different, you start to think that you're wrong or broken. And that's where we see that depression and anxiety come in.

Well, that's a good segue into what I was gonna ask you about is I was thinking, what is helpful? Because I see a lot of parents wrestle with this too, Holly, where they're thinking, well, I think we can tell he or she has ADHD already, or I think we can tell autism's there. I bet the kid's dad has it too, or you'll have to hear those kind of comments, right? And they'll kind of laugh, and they'll be like, so don't really see the point in getting a diagnosis.

So what is helpful in doing that and actually going through those steps to go see, instead of just saying, I think they do have this, we'll just act as if they do, the pediatrician says it probably is true, but is there something that you think is more beneficial to actually going and getting that official diagnosis?

I think asking yourself as a parent first, what would be my concern about a diagnosis? And usually I start there. I've been on that side, you know, with both of my kids. I understand the fears there, but I've also been on the other side, you know, as a therapist specializing in supporting neurodivergent individuals. I think that it can be.

really helpful to have a diagnosis. If you don't understand yourself, kind of what I was talking about earlier, when you don't have an idea of why you move in the world the way you do, or you behave in ways that you do, you will think you're wrong or broken when you're not. And I see the mental health.

Yeah, yeah.

damage that that can do when you don't understand yourself because you're getting all these stop signs popping up all over in your life, right? At school, at home, in the community. And of course you would take that on as in, I'm not good enough. Everything I do is wrong. And a lot of times we'll see these kids retreat into their own worlds because they've been met with criticism and rejection so much in their lives. There is something

Yeah. Yep.

so lovely and beautiful about being able to learn about yourself. I was much older when I was diagnosed. I don't know how I missed that. Let me just say, mean, hello, Holly. But it was an incredible relief. I have to say an absolute

Yeah.

Mmm. Yeah.

relief to know that I wasn't lazy, that I wasn't bad, that I wasn't weird and all the things that I had been called because now I understood why I did the things that I did, why I couldn't understand something socially. It made so much more sense and there's some grief there, right? Anytime that you learn about yourself too, there's a little bit of grief that can come.

But I do feel like that having a diagnosis is ultimately the best thing to do as early as you can because that also impacts your life moving forward. Many of these kids have learning disabilities that are unidentified and they continue to struggle in school and they're told, harder, try harder. And when they are trying the hardest they can and it's still not good enough, you can imagine the mental health.

Yeah.

Yep.

issues that can come with that. So because a lot of autistic folks and ADHDers are more likely to have learning differences because they do have a different learning style, they're not going to get what they need in school if they don't actually have a diagnosis.

Yeah, I'm even thinking of Holly. The story that pops in my head was a kid who had a really bad relationship with his dad when he came to see me. And so we were just working on that. But in that process, he decided to get tested. And at this point, he was 17, 18 and finds out he's autistic. And then his dad watched the movie of Temple Grandin.

in her story, who's got, who had autism and she's kind of famous in that area of kind of pioneering some stuff in autism. But he saw that story and heard about her life. And he just said, he cried throughout the whole thing. Cause he realized like, this is the stuff I was screaming at my son about. mean, there were several moments at school where this kid had to get in front of a bunch of people and present because he was a very smart kid and it terrified him.

Hmm

Kyle And Sara Wester (13:41.934)

but dad was adamant that you're gonna do that. And like the kid was just so scarred by these moments of, but once they found this out, you just saw dad like just soften, it helped him have compassion. And from then on the work I was doing was easy. Because it was like, wow, like dad now is completely shifted. And it was really neat to see the kid all of sudden see his story right before my eyes start to take on new meaning.

and he started going on social media and looking up different people who had autism and he was like, oh, I found my people. found, oh, I think just like this. It was really neat to see his even confidence start to change in himself.

love that so much. And I feel like when you can find your people, there's something so lovely because if you can't, if you feel like you don't fit anywhere and no one is like you, oh, I'm not like them. They have a diagnosis and I don't, but I'm also not like them.

Yeah.

And it gets really confusing and isolating. And I love that. think that when there is a parent who has that shift in their mindset of, was trying to make my child into something that he's not, that is...

Yeah.

You know, there's gonna be some parent guilt there, of course, that's totally human. I've made mistakes as a parent, parenting my two neurodivergent kids, we all do. And so we learn what we can, we apologize to them, and we figure out what helps them in the way that they need instead of trying to do things maybe that would work for someone else.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I really, that's what I feel like is so helpful is it's actually, it's scary to think, like you said, the grief, the blame that you get, you know, the shame, all those things can be wrapped up in big hurdles. But when you get to the other side of that, you're equipped, you can get the tools that you need. And the difference it makes for the child is amazing. The difference it makes for the parents, because I think these parents who have been

feeling so lost, they actually realize, oh, oh, now I know I can do this. Oh, now I can do this. And it's helpful when you get to that other side and it's encouraging for the whole family.

I think so too. So we talked about the child finding their people. Parents can find their people because we've been that family that's not invited to the birthday parties on the block. We moved by the way, so forget them, whatever. They're not our people.

Yeah. Mmm, it's good. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

you get to figure that out for yourself. So instead of feeling shamed and blamed by maybe extended family or whoever neighbors, you then get this understanding of, this is what my kid needs. And then putting boundaries in place, deciding what works for your family. There's a lot of adjustments, but I would say that it's harder not to pursue and evaluate

graduation and if they meet criteria for a diagnosis then not. Both roads aren't easy but to me the road of being able to get more information and understand how to support your child individually is a much better road to be on.

Yeah, Yeah, yeah.

Well, as you're saying that, it seems like there's so many things that parents, I think, would naturally want to go get a diagnosis, like if the kid was diabetic, you know, or the kid did have some learning issues, like they're dyslexic or something like that. It just seems like some of that comes with less shame, you know, and that they'll go get that diagnosis and go, oh, cool, now we can help the kid read or now we can help the kid understand better what's going on with their blood sugar and now their mood's not so, you know, up and down all the time. But it does still seem like there is this

stigma, even though it's getting more more common, but to go have that diagnosis. think ADHD parents are more willing to go do that, but I still feel like there's some resistance at times to autism and finding out your kid may be autistic.

agree too, because again, there is this, we naturally as parents want to protect our children, right? We do. And we're going to take it to 11 to protect them, right? Like the people that are listening right now are taking it to 11 because they love their kids so much. That's why they're taking time out of their day to hear this.

Yeah.

Yes.

It's figuring out what they need and again, how they need it. And we're all on this journey as parents. It's not an easy journey, but when you learn more about your child, the more you can figure out what they need and the more you can dive into those accommodations at school, the more we can show them how to advocate for themselves. it's really a, it's not easy, but again,

Yeah.

not easy either way, but we are showing them how important they are, showing them that their needs matter, and showing them what they should be getting in terms of support.

You know, something Sarah and I are really interested in hearing from you, Holly, is a lot of times when we speak, you know, at conferences or churches, and we're sharing the parenting approach that we teach, you know, more of a inside out model rather than an outside in, you know, more of an emotion focused approach rather than a behavior focus, you know. A lot of times you'll typically have a handful of parents who say, well, my kid's neurodivergent, is this gonna work for them?

And so they have this idea that this kind of approach can't help kids with these kind of diagnoses. That somehow you have to be more behavior focused and more outward in focus lots of times. So I'd love to hear what your thoughts are about that. And I'm sure parents come in all the time to get recommendations from you about how to guide their kid, how to do discipline, how to do all that kind of stuff.

So that's we can do another episode on that Right. I know when you guys are on my podcast or like, oh, that's another episode. That's another We have so much to talk about so there is not one package People aren't packages, right and so

I'm sure, figured. Right? Yes.

Yes, yes, yes.

Mm-hmm.

The way I think of it is if you're able as a parent to step back and say, I value my kid for who they are. I want to know more about how they process information, how they experience the world. What can make it very difficult, a parent of neurodivergent kids, is it's not very clear. So you have to step back and wonder, I wonder how I can communicate with my child or teach them how to communicate in a way where I can learn more about what they need. And so because if someone is autistic, there are going to be those social communication differences. So they may not be able to just say, I'm feeling really sad because of this. You know, it doesn't mean they're not. They probably are. But we have to get very creative and really niche down to how does this

Yeah.

child communicate this need. And even if the child has lots of words, even if they're gifted, that doesn't mean that communication is going to be easy for them. So a lot of times I will look at how can we support that child and learning more about what works and doesn't work for them. It could be pointing. It could be circling. could be put your hand up if you want me to give you some space right now.

There's so many different things that you can do that maybe is a little less wordy, if that makes sense, because words can be very overwhelming for someone with processing differences. So I would say that the bulk of what you're teaching with compassion and understanding and relationship is absolutely that foundation. So there may be some differences when it comes to the approach and implementing strategy.

Yeah. Yes, that's good. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yep.

Yeah, yep, yep.

Some people are under the impression that autistic people can't have mental health therapy, which is absolutely not true. Now, back in the day when I was starting out, it was very rare because there was that misunderstanding.

But absolutely, if you can see a specialist psychologist like me, who has training and experience in supporting their exact needs, but that foundation to me is the same.

Yeah, that's great. What I'm hearing you say is, obviously the techniques can change, but it's really like the heart of what you're doing is what you're trying to help the kid do, whatever diagnosis they have is you're trying to understand them, but also helping them understand themselves. And so inevitably through that understanding, through that connection, then you kind of develop techniques you know, almost co-create these techniques with them that can best help them succeed. And of course, what's beneficial in that, then they now understand what works for them and now they can do that for the rest of their life and they can advocate at whatever work they're at or whatever space they go into to say, this really helps me if you do X, Y, and Z.

That helps in school, that helps with future employment. That is so incredibly important. the parents I work with are amazing. They are the kids that I work with, the adults that I work with, the teens I work with. They have that foundation, like you were saying, is I want to do what's going to work for my child. And you are 110 % correct when you approach it like that. We want to be their safe people. We want home to be their safe space. And we can only do that if we approach them with compassion and collaboration.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And it's so encouraging to me because it kind of, if I, you know, if I step in the shoes of, okay, I can just sort of relax, calm down, you know, it, and, um, and join in this relationship with my child, there are people out there who understand there's, there's hope for my child and hope for me. And it's about this curiosity and relationship with my child and it, and exploring, let's try this, let's do this. And it, and it comes from this place of relationship instead of I'm going to master five perfect techniques that

I'm going to impose on you, you know, and it's going to, and it's going to turn everything around, you know, but it's just like this unfolding that happens in the relationship and it's a journey and, and you're to be on this journey with them, but it's a journey they're going to be on for their life and you're empowering them to go, okay, what's working for me? What helps me? How do I move through the world? And I love how to me, that's so encouraging to hear and you know, giving hope. Yeah, and Holly, on that, I'd love to ask you this. For a lot of parents, they'll go and they'll seek out, they'll get a diagnosis. And sometimes you do see the parent going through maybe some fear about what that means for their kid. Sometimes there's this shame about, I do something? I've actually heard couples get in arguments over like, what did you eat when he was pregnant? Did you like cause this to happen? And so it turns into this anger towards each other for somehow screwing their kid up and making this happen. Or you have a family history of that and you pass that on to our kid. And so what do you say to parents that... you know, instead of this diagnosis being freeing and it's like, oh cool, now we understand, now I can help my kid. It brings a lot of fear and shame.

Yeah, I agree. And I think that they're already before the diagnosis to some extent, right? And so I think all feelings are valid. I don't think any of them are wrong. I think parents sometimes when they feel shame, then they feel shame because they feel shame, right? And then it stacks. So it's completely normal to go through all that grieving.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Because you had this idea, I think we all do as parents, you have this idea of what you think is going to happen for your child. Oh yes, they're gonna do this and then they're gonna go to college and then they're gonna have this kind of plan. Yeah, and then they're gonna have kids. And then we have this idea that we have for them and in that way there's some grief there too. I think that maybe this will look different.

Yeah, you have a dream. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So let yourself, that's what I say, let yourself, let yourself have all the feelings. Don't feel bad about having feelings. We don't want our children to feel bad about their feelings. So that's just a natural thing to feel.

Yeah. yeah. Yeah. It sounds like what you're saying, Holly, a big part of that might be kind of having to grieve that loss and then kind of reimagine what this can look like going forward with your kid. And it may, it's definitely going to look different, but it doesn't necessarily have to look bad. It can look, it can look really beautiful. And really, I think, and I know you agree with this, Holly, that's a pivotal work for the parent to do because the kid's going to go through some of that same work.

Exactly.

because there's gonna be, yeah, because the kids haven't agreed this as well. Maybe what they thought it looked like to quote unquote be normal or be like all the other kids. And they're gonna need to start creating a new vision of what that future could look like with that diagnosis.

It's daily work.

And that's absolutely true.

because they're gonna be in situations where they are not treated kindly. And really coming together as a family, but also making it okay to feel those feelings. A lot of times what we wanna do is protect our kids. Oh, don't feel that way. Well, you can't really, that's not really how it goes. Your feelings are gonna come, your thoughts are gonna come. But that's what's so lovely about having a niche psychologist or counselor

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep.

who can help you through those times. I know a lot of parents who have therapists themselves to help them move through things. They join groups with other parents who understand and they feel that community. So I think it's important.

Thank you.

to able to have your own supports in place as well. And if it's not extended family, if your support isn't there, that can happen. If it's not in your neighborhood like us, we move. I'm not saying you have to move. But I mean, you have to have your community and that might even be online. Maybe it's not local, but.

Yeah,

Yep, yep, that's true, yep.

We want to show our kids how important that is to have people that care about them and support them and are more understanding of them instead of judgmental. So, you again, you're working as a family unit in that way.

Is there any kind of advice you'd give a parent about things to stay away from? You kept talking about in particular, if you can find a psychologist like yourself who has that kind of niche, that's great. And obviously, if you had a counselor who has experience with that, that's awesome. Is there things you would encourage them to say, I wouldn't do that type of treatment, or I wouldn't go that route. I don't find that as helpful.

You know, I think that is a great question. And I never would want to discourage any parent for trying something that they feel might be helpful. Another thing that I find that parents feel, and I know I did personally, is, well, what if I don't do that then? What if that's the thing that helps? There's some push and pull there as well. But.

Yeah.

I think if we consider it this way, which we don't often give kids enough credit, our kids are our best teachers. They are.

Yeah, yep.

And we need specialized people to support them because they're not going to move through the world like everyone else. That's what being a nerd virgin is. So I do recommend when you are going to work with any psychologist or psychiatrist that you interview them. And you in your gut know.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yep.

Right, if this person is gonna be a fit, if you're not sure, maybe you go with them, you work with them, observe, and if it turns out well, great, and if it doesn't, that's okay too. That person isn't a match for your family. So I think of it that way, where you can kind of decide what you wanna do. Nobody has to decide for you, because you know your child best.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I like that. Just feel free, um, to try things, feel free to explore your options and you'll discover along the way the path that works for you, that works for your child, that works for your family. I always wonder, okay, so if, if we jump into that, um, then I want to know what would you point them to? Like here's some great places to start and, then you can build from there, but here's some, here's a few, here's a handful.

Right, I think that's a great question. There are some things to think about. So for instance, Chad is a big organization for ADHD. And there are many like local Facebook groups or support groups in our towns. They're kind of everywhere. You can look on their website. And also the Autism Society is a great organization and they are...

Okay.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

really active in many places where there are parent groups or you can even attend online. I like the idea of starting with other parents.

Mmm, yep.

Now that doesn't mean that because somebody wasn't a fit for one child doesn't mean they won't be for yours. But I do think it's a good place to start because parents of neurodivergent kids are like the most resourceful people that you'll ever meet in your entire life. They really are, they're amazing. So I would start there and of course you can go, you know,

That's true. You're right. No, you're right. That's Yes. Yeah.

Ask around, you know, at schools too. A lot of school counselors have good ideas of who is in the community that might be a good fit for a child. And of course, psychology today, they have a nice filter for therapists who advertise on there. But just...

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

make sure that if you don't have direct knowledge that you're still interviewing that person. Because on Psychology Today, you can kind of write down whatever you do and you say, I specialize, I specialize, I specialize in all these things. I don't know how they do it, all those things. I just do a few things.

Of course, of course you can Yeah, yeah Well, and of course a great resource to start is to listen to your podcast Yeah

Oh, yes. Yes, absolutely. The autism ADHD podcast. One on over. I would love for you to join me. I cover so many important topics, have lots of guests and lovely guests like yourself.

Yeah, yeah.

What, when it sounds, it sounds like a great community too, to where if I had a kid and the kid was two, three, four, five, and I'm, we're talking, we're like, I think there might be something going on here. I'd want to jump on your podcast to be like, let me hear what these people are saying about it. And maybe, okay, that will be the little push we need to take that next step to go find that psychologist, to go seek out that counselor, to get that diagnosis, to make sure it's not about, I mean, I love your heart on this Holly. It's not about just labeling a kid.

It's not about pitching holding them, but it's really about freeing you and that kid to really be informed and better understand what this says about you. And then how did that equip you to then go through life and create the life you want with this understanding and knowledge that you have about yourself.

Well said. I love it. And I mean, it was like a mic drop, right? Right there. That was a mic drop moment. I love it. And it's true. And it is a great resource. And I cover so many different topics, everything from evaluation.

And it was so good, you have nothing to add to that.

to supports, to schools, to rights, schools rights, you name it, it's in there and I'm really excited about it.

Oh, that's awesome. That's so great. Yes. Man. Yeah. Love it. Well, Holly, yeah, we are going to point all the parents that we help coach and come to us with kids, you know, with these diagnosis will be like, you're, definitely added to the list of go check out this podcast because it is a unique.

It is, there's a lot of unique aspects to it that really are going to that can help parents. One, I think just feel more hopeful and encouraged and not not feel like they're alone or feel like this is somehow a really negative, you know, diagnosis that has to mean horrible things for your kid that I know you and I, Sarah, we run into a lot of kids with these diagnoses who are killing it, who are doing doing life so well and actually see life in really cool ways that I just think is really

really beautiful and moving. so I hope parents know that more and more of those things out there exist. But where else can they find you besides their podcasts? Any other things, any other ways they could reach you, Holly, and learn more about the work you're

Yeah, so definitely you want to have my link below in your show notes. And they can look at my parent workshops. I do live parent workshops every month. Also, I do continuing education for counselors, by the way, if you're interested. Yeah, so I've got Facebook groups for parents, Facebook groups for professionals.

Yep. Yep.

Oh great. Yeah, awesome.

Yes. Yep. Yep. Yep. That's awesome. Yes. We always do those.

Oh, great.

There's all kinds of things on there. Some freebies, a social interaction guide, a behavior detective guide. You can find all kinds of lovely free stuff on there.

Oh cool.

That's so great. you. And Holly, thank you so much for coming on and helping our audience just know more about a subject that we hear about all the time, but don't actually get to talk about all the time. So thank you so much for coming on today. Thank you.

Thanks for having me, I appreciate it.