Episode 119

Episode 119 Transcript:

Are you worried about what technology might be doing to your kids? Are you constantly thinking, are they on it too much? Did we introduce it too early? Are my kids addicted to these screens? wait, am I addicted to these screens? Well, we know this is a huge topic for families that we meet with all the time of wondering what is the right way? What is the wrong way? How do we have a healthy relationship with devices? Well, we wanted to get on an expert to speak about this. So today,

We have a great guest. We've got Dr. Barbara Sorrels who's specific that has been spending time studying this very subject of technology and its impact on our kids today. And you know, I mean, if you're listening to this podcast, you've been listening to Sarah and I long enough, you know, we need to be intentional about this stuff, right? We don't want like technology just happened to our kids. We want to do something about it. So today in the podcast, you are going to get some specific information about the ages that's best.

to introduce this stuff about it wins the right time to allow this to go and work. If you've already done it, what's some steps to limit it or pull it back? So you're gonna be equipped with how to better approach the subject with your kids to where they have a healthier relationship with it and they're able to learn the skills they need to be successful humans. But before you jump in to the conversation, please take a moment and rate the podcast, comment on it, means the world to us to get your feedback. It also is so important to help us get our rating up so more more parents

find out about this and what parent doesn't need to find out about how to do technology better. So please pause it for a moment, do that real quick and then get ready to jump into this conversation and be equipped to do this technology stuff in a healthier way in your family. Hope you enjoy.

Hello and welcome to the Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. And I'm Sarah. And today we have a special guest for you talking about a topic that I know is really close to so many parents' hearts and families, you know? The issue of technology and the impact it's having on our kids, you know? So we really wanted to bring in an expert who's doing some research currently.

on this topic to really equip you and inform you with the current information. Cause I know that's something we talk to families a lot about, know? yeah. And it's even present in our lives as parents, technology, it's everywhere. How much do you give your kid? I mean, there's so many questions around it. Yeah. So I want to get right into it and introduce you to Dr. Barbara Sorrell. So welcome doctor.

Good, hello, glad to be here. Thank you so much.

And so if you could just tell our audience just who you are, what's your background, how did you get into this

Well, I've been in the field of education now for almost 50 years. I have served as a classroom teacher. I founded and directed a couple of early childhood centers in Washington, DC and Fort Worth, Texas. Taught at Oklahoma State University in the early childhood program. And then in 2007, I left to do just freelance work, training parents, training teachers.

And in 2016, I founded a nonprofit agency, Connected Kids, and we are dedicated to helping children who come from hard places. I've written several books, probably the most well -known one is Reaching and Teaching Children Exposed to Trauma, among other things. so right now I work a lot with schools, a lot with parents.

in terms of helping to understand why kids do what they do and how adversity can affect them either in a positive way or a negative way. And one of the things that I see that has had a huge impact over the last decade is technology. And it is the misuse of technology and not technology in and of itself

has can potentially be harmful to children. because of what I'm seeing in schools and across our culture, I think it is one of the foremost topics that parents need to be learning about, talking about, thinking about with regard to their children.

Yeah, 100 % completely. mean, it's just basically, I'm sure you're seeing this, it's every moment of every day. It's completely filled with it, right? And I know one of the reasons I appreciate you sharing your history there, because that's kind of how I stumbled upon you too, is just your passion for helping kids in hard places. And I remember going to a conference you did and just feeling that passion and just connecting with that because Sarah and I are also equally as passionate.

about helping people understand and see behavior in a different way. And I think so many times parents are misunderstanding it, but then especially sometimes trying to change it by using technology, right? It's just like, take the screen, use this device, right? And I think that's a real, we can understand why they would do it, but it's obviously there's a real danger to that. And there are consequences that are happening in our society and to kids because...

I'd like to hear more about when you say dangers, mean, my mind kind of goes, I think I know some of those, but I'd like to hear what are you learning? What are the concerns with technology and children?

Well, I would say that it kind of began for me back around 2008 as I was out doing training across the I had written the training for the early learning guidelines for the state of Oklahoma. So I was out and about in schools and childcare centers a lot. And I started hearing teachers ask the question, what's happened to the kids?

And I noticed that it was all third grade and under, which would be about eight and under. And everywhere I went, people were saying, what's happened to the kids? And I would say, what do you mean? And they're saying they're so aggressive. They're so angry. They no longer have the capacity to self -regulate. And so I started thinking back, what happened eight years ago? And it hit me one day that that was around 2000 was when probably

Most families in America, regardless of income, had access to a computer. And of course, we're seeing kids more and more using the computer. But I'm learning that it was even more than the computer. was in the early 2000s that broadband internet came on the scene, where you no longer had to sit there forever listening to the screech

as it accessed, and I don't understand all the ins and outs of technology, but it used to take a really long time to even access. And now we have this instant access. so families and parents alike, it's not just kids, but also parents were on a screen more than they had in the past just because of the ease of access.

Yes, they did.

And I liken it to, you know, back in my generation, it would be the dad who would come home from work and sit behind the newspaper. But now parents increasingly, because of the limitless access to information, we're spending more time on a screen. I no longer sit behind a newspaper, but I've got my head buried in the screen. And so I started thinking back to the implications of that for children.

because the brain comes online, the brain develops that neural circuitry, the brain learns to self -regulate by face -to -face interaction with the more organized brain. And I thought, children are not getting that anymore. And I started calling it relational poverty. That there's no longer that face -to -face interaction with a more organized brain.

And so then as the decades went on, then by 2012, most Americans had access to a smartphone of one kind or another, regardless of income. And that took technology to a whole different level in terms of what it's doing to our children.

And I think one of the primary things that has happened is our kids no longer have a play -based childhood. They have a screen -based childhood. And then at the same time, it was kind of like the perfect storm. Back in the 90s and into the early 2000s, there was this perception that the world had become increasingly dangerous, which when you look statistically really wasn't true.

Yes. Yep. Yep.

Mmm.

Statistically, when you look, it's the late 60s and early 70s where crime rate was at its highest. But the perception was that, you know, in the 2000s and so at the same time, we are pulling our children in closer, limiting, in a sense, clipping their wings. Technology is exploding and so children no longer afforded the benefit of a play -based

They spend a great deal of their childhood on a screen. And one of the things that I am adamant about is children cannot grow in healthy ways without access to child directed play. And that's what I see is one of the primary dangers with younger children. Now, of course, when you get into the teenage years, it's the social media and the pornography and the instant access to pure culture

Can you say that one more time?

becomes the, I think the big red flag that shows the most potential for

And could you repeat that again about the missing out on the child directed play? Can you say that line again? Because I want to make sure the audience hears that.

Yes, children cannot grow in healthy sorts of ways without child -directed play. Now also, I need to clarify that when children are engaged in organized sports, that's adult organized play. And I'm not saying that there's no benefit to that, but they can grow in healthy ways without that, but they can't grow in healthy ways without child -directed play.

Yes. Sure.

You know, meaning that it's initiated by the child. No one tells them to do it. Excuse me. And they have the freedom to choose the things that are intriguing to them. Because one, children will not sustain for long periods of time with materials that are not of interest to them. Also, it is the sheer pleasure of it

causes children to keep coming back to it, that sustains their interests. And that's actually how focused attention grows and develops within a child, which I would say is one of the number one things we're seeing in schools. Children have very little capacity for focused attention. I would say well -nurtured children do, but children who have a screen -based childhood,

have very little capacity for the kind of attention that allows them to be successful learners in a group setting. And then the other aspect of child directed play is that children make the rules. Now, a lot of times, we don't know that there's rules until the children make a mistake. Somebody makes a mistake and breaks the unspoken rules. I always say like, when you look

Mmm.

like young children, for example, children may be playing Pizza Hut in a dramatic play setting and everybody has their assumed role and then all of a sudden Johnny jumps up and he starts acting like the fireman in the middle of the Pizza Hut scene and the play stops and usually the Queen Bee will say something like, you can't do

Yes.

And so Johnny has to either negotiate a new role approved by the group, or he has to go back to being his assigned role assumed role at the beginning of the play. So there's all these nuances of social interaction, social emotional development that isn't going to happen on a screen that our kids are not getting. We look at our culture, we look what's going on in our schools, we look at

what's happening to kids in classrooms. And so much of it goes back to this lack of a play -based child.

You had mentioned the importance of relationship and face -to -face versus the screen, how we lose something when we're looking at faces on a screen versus in person and interacting. Could you share a little bit more about what that means and the importance of that face -to -face, that relationship, our children are more deprived of that relationship right now?

Yes, because screens have become our default way of parenting, even with our teenagers. Because when children are on screens, they are mesmerized by the flashing light and moving color. And also, especially when they're playing games, and especially as they get into the teenage years, those games are very intentionally designed to manipulate

brain chemistry and in particular, dopamine. Dopamine is that neurotransmitter, neurochemical related to reward. And it's somewhat complicated and you would even say even reward and non -reward. But the fact is all those games are programmed for kids to get that dopamine hit, that intermittent dopamine hit.

which is how you develop addiction. And when children don't, their tanks don't get filled with that relationship, they will turn to addictive behaviors, things like alcohol, drugs, and screens. Screens are as addictive as all these other substances. And so for so many families, you no longer have family sitting around a dinner table talking about their day.

You don't have families coming together for family nights or going out on picnics or whatever. It's on the weekends. I give you a screen so that I can get done all the things that I didn't get to do while I was working during the week. And our screens have become our babysitters. And there's so many implications for that. One of the things that we know is

We're seeing increasing numbers of children with language delay because we all have to do a certain amount of what we call business talk in daily living. know, put your shoes on, go brush your teeth. That's business talk, but there's what's called decontextualized speech where children and families just sit around and it's like, tell me what was the best part of your day? What was the worst?

talking about something that you hear on the news, talking about maybe even a movie that you've seen together. So how do you feel about that? Where you have these conversations, meandering conversations that allow children to explore ideas, to explore their thoughts versus just the business talk of getting things done. And I

Because of screens, it's cut down on that family time. really, I personally believe now, I don't have research to back this up. It's my opinion that 80 % of children in our culture are at risk of relational poverty because of the lack of just time carved out for that face -to -face interaction. Screens don't give

Screens don't give you that feedback and so much of the interaction, especially in the teen years is asynchronous. You know, I put something out there on Facebook or I text you, there's not necessarily that give and take and one, I don't see you. So I don't know how to read body language and facial expressions and so much of what we communicate is through the body. And relationships are embodied.

And that whole dynamic of embodied interaction is taken out of the scene when children primarily interact through screens and through technology.

Man, I love those words, Dr. Soros. love, man, it breaks my heart, the idea of relational poverty. I mean, when you say it that way, definitely you can see that. But then also this idea of relationships being embodied and how really that's what makes relationships and connections so meaningful and deep is they are embodied. Like you can feel it in your body. Whereas then if we're always using technology, if we're just so accustomed to just the texting or the social media and there's really not that interaction.

You're really, think lots of kids then aren't even feeling that embodied connection. They're more just thinking relationship is this thing, and they're not really getting the depth of what it means to have a relationship and be connected and communicate. Man, it really breaks my heart as I say it.

Yeah. And I think that especially as kids get older, their mind is filled with trivialities. You know, they don't think deeply about anything because screen -based learning doesn't really encourage that kind of learning. And then the other thing I would say to parents is that, okay, if you're going to limit screens, then I have to step up to the plate and replace that with something else.

I can't just say, tell my child, it's like, my goodness, I learned this stuff about screens and, you know, we need to cut back and all this. Okay, now I've got to step up to the plate and help my child find other avenues and introduce my child to new things that they can do. One of the things that we know is so many kids these days don't even know what, you know, things to do with their hands. Like for example, my grandchildren are here.

this past week and they have been busy, busy, because they do come from a family where there's very tight controls on screens and they make all sorts of things. We spent the evening last night, my 11 year old granddaughter, we were sewing and making scrunchies on the sewing machine and my grandson was putting together a model car.

and they know how to whittle and they know how to crochet and they know how to do all sorts of things. they are never bored. However, well, I would say that's not true. They have moments of boredom, but it's like I used to tell my kids, I am 100 % confident in your ability to find something creative to do. And they do, like, oh, how you know what to do with that.

Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. I'm even thinking about I know when my when my son as a little kid when I'd want to connect with him and say hey Brennan I've got about an hour I just love to spend an hour with you the thing he would choose most of the time at the age of four or five was he just wanted to play cars and he just wanted to imagine with the cars and I remember like feeling like it was such a sacrifice on my part

to just play cars. Like it actually, it just took so much energy out of me to be like, just Kyle, just focus on playing the cars. And the thing that always kind of convicted me, Barbara, was the sense that I wanted that hour to end. Like I enjoyed it, but I also was kind of like counting the time, how much, but he looked like he was just having the time of his life.

and there was nothing more he wanted to do than to do that with me. And I think lots of times that's where it's a struggle for parents to be able to really put that time aside and say, I'll just do this hour with you playing cars.

And I think showing them that you take delight in the things that they delight in. And another thing that I see happen is, your child might say, wanna play cars. And there might be something else that you would rather do. I mean, it might be kid -based, but you would rather do it. no, let's this over here. You know, right there, I have miss attuned.

with my child and being willing to enter into their joy. I think it's something that many parents have lost and that we need to recover because they know we all leak. They know when we're not all in. And I think that that's something

we've lost as a culture. And I say that parents need to pursue their child almost like you do, you know, when you're dating somebody. I want to know what makes you like, I want to know what you like. I want to know what makes you laugh. I want to know what scares you. And I would say a lot of people know more about their computer and their car than they do their child. And, and that, and that's sad. And so consequently we're seeing

all this lack of regulation showing up in classrooms to the point where in many, places, more than half of the classroom is dysregulated and it's making the world of education increasingly more challenging. And unfortunately, we're seeing teachers dropping like flies.

And so much of it goes back to the misuse of screens, which then also brings up the whole conversation of the misuse of screens in education, which is, you know, a conversation of another time. But it's very concerning all the way

So if, I know as a parent and talking to parents, sometimes you feel like the screens keep things peaceful, you know, and my kid is bored or my kids are fighting, but screens, they, you know, they're busy and I need to get my work done. And we have all these things. If we are in the position of, how do I do that? Because it seems like if they don't have screens, then they are dysregulated and things are really difficult.

How do you have, have you talked to parents or have you worked with parents and helped kind of transition them if they're trying to make a change and it feels kind of overwhelming, what are some things they can do or how can they start moving in the direction away from screens and to this face to face and to play based, all the things you were mentioning.

Well, again, it depends on the age of the child. I say with littles, a jar of Play -Doh will engage them far longer and be more creative and engaging and sensory than placing a screen in front of them. You know, I have to have tools in my toolbox as a parent, know, things and markers and pieces of paper.

Paper plates or they make things on paper plates, very inexpensive kinds of things. As kids get older, taking time to teach them how to do board games. know, in those moments where you're waiting for dinner to be made, play a board game again, teaching them different kinds of hobbies. They've got to have hobbies. You

What my grandson right now who is nine is into making paracord bracelets, know, very inexpensive. I've got, I've got a front load that I can't wait till in the moment and go, no, you're going to turn off the screen. And I have not prepared to you, not provided and taught you other things to

yes, we've been there. We've been there. Yes, we've been there.

depending on the age of the child and again you know this goes back to the perception of danger give them some chalk and go chalk on the sidewalk you know teaching them and giving them opportunities to do things in the backyard kids are no longer in the backyard and I also say as you grow up as kids grow up make your house the fun house

where kids are welcomed, you know, from whether you're a part of a faith group, encourage your kids to invite friends over, be the house that, you know, gives them, makes the pizza and plays board games. And it doesn't have to be expensive stuff. I mean, board games are way cheaper than video games and computers and all that kind of thing. And then also don't give in to the iPhone.

You know, I meet five year olds who have iPhones. I don't think children need iPhones until they are 16 and ready to drive. Now we've had this conversation even with my own daughter and they live in a neighborhood that's somewhat rural where the kids might walk a mile down the road to go visit a friend.

And so to, and we've talked about how when we were growing up, we did have a phone where we called our friends. It was on the wall in the kitchen and had a cord and everybody listened to your conversation. But their solution, there is a watch and I forget what it's called where.

My granddaughter can call people that my daughter has approved and text people that my daughter has approved. She can't get on the internet. There's nothing else she can do on that. And so my daughter can, she can get on her bike and bike a mile down the road. And my, her daughter can say, I'm here. That's all that she needs. And, not giving

to the peer pressure of giving them cell phones way before they need it. And I say, even then flip phones. And in fact, there were some parents of some older teens who told me their kids were asking for flip phones. They're like, we're sick of this internet stuff. And you're less likely to text when you have to sit there and push a button three or four times to get a letter.

And so there's accommodations that can be made. I think it's a tragedy that schools allow cell phones. And we've seen some media in the news lately. It's been, know, the governor of Virginia and Newsome are eliminating cell phones in high schools. Great move.

I don't know why they ever allowed that anyway. Why should a child be allowed to have access to a cell phone sitting in a classroom? And of course they say they have to have it turned off and you know, they're not turned off. so, know, adults need to step up to the plate and be ready for the pushback. Yeah, it's not gonna be easy.

Cheers.

Yeah, yeah. What's your thoughts on lots of times we've recommended for parents who are struggling with this where it seems like they at an early age gave them screens and now they're really seeing the ripple effect. The kids are eight, nine, 10 and it's like they really would prefer that over anything else. They don't really find board games as exciting or any other kind of play like you're talking about as exciting or they've kind

bought into that, that that's just more fun to be on the screen. So lots of times we'll recommend like a screen fast. You know, we'll talk about as a family taking three weeks off from the screen, like everybody. So mom, dad, kids, we're all going to be off of it. And, and we have seen some success in that when parents do that, would they say the first week is difficult? You know, the first week the kids are like, I want it so bad. then by like the second week, they'll be like, wow, the siblings are actually fighting less.

You know, they're actually playing there. They're getting out monopoly. They're getting out these board games. They're asking us to do it with them. And then by the third week, they're like not asking at all for the screens. They're just like now excited about. So I didn't know if you've seen that work at all or any suggestions or thoughts you have on like a screen fast

I mean, I've seen that work too. And you have to be willing to put up with the pushback and now they are going to be angry. But then I've got to be ready and introducing the games and have other things planned. I think there's another way you could do it is just slowly wean them off. OK, there's no iPads in the car.

You know what I mean? I've got to be ready to have things to do. And I think that when you say nobody's taking a screen in the car, it's usually in the car when your teenagers are going to spill their guts to you because it's side by side called parallel processing. And when I go into a group of people and I say, when is it that your your teenager is most likely to spill their guts or their your tween?

Everybody goes in the car. Yep. And so no screens in the car. Going on a long trip and now I've got to have activities. We just got back on a long trip with my grand grandkids. We played the alphabet game. A, I'm going on a trip and taking A for whatever. Took an hour for us all to get through the alphabet. And you know, and it means that I can't be lost in my own little world. But I would say the fast.

Cold turkey, that's great. If you don't think you can do that, at least start weaning. No iPads in the car, no iPad, no phones at dinner. They go on top of the refrigerator in a basket, slowly start cut back. I say there's no one particular right way. No, I would say for adults, it's probably cold turkey.

Yes, yes. Do you have an age that you would say, if a parent's saying, okay, we're really intentional about not having screens introduced to our kids, is there an age where you would recommend and say, okay, well, somewhat being on the iPad for a limited amount of time or whatever, what age? I know you mentioned 16 being your recommendation for a phone, a more smartphone type situation, but what would you say in general for parents with young, kids?

Well, I will tell you what some of the gurus of this field say. And it's pretty raw. say whenever you're ready for your child to look at pornography, that's when you introduce it. However, one I would say certainly,

limited screen time. mean, well, we got that no screen time in the first two years of life. There's no reason why an infant and a toddler, but I see that. And very limited, what I would say TV time in the preschool years. I mean, I think there's some movies you can watch again together as a family because you can spur some great conversation like inside out. A lot of conversation with

Yes, yes. And so many of the say like Disney stories, although you can make a case that Disney has kind of hijacked some of the fairy tales, but yet there's those existential themes in the battle between good and evil and love and hate. if I take the time to have those conversations with my child, those can be used. But in terms of just getting on a screen and playing games,

I personally say in the first eight years of life and the years of developing brain, none or very little, where their brains are fully established, they've developed some, well, when I look at Eric Garek's sense of developmental stages, the trust, the autonomy, the competency industry, all of those solid foundational tasks,

But then very specific controls in terms of what, how much time, what media, not cell phones, possibly an iPad where they might play certain kinds of games, but also don't get sucked into the whole notion that, they're educational games. No, they're not. They're pretty much just electronic worksheets. There's nothing that they're going to learn that they can't learn better in a face -to -face interaction. Recognize it for what it is. It's passive entertainment.

Because then the other thing that we've seen and you alluded to is that real life never moves as fast as it does on a screen. And real life is not all about the flashing light and moving color and the rapid pace. you know, especially in some of those things that are geared to children, people have these painted faces and these big overstated gestures and emotions. That's not real

And I think that's one of the things that teachers are now having to compete with is the classroom is always going to lose out to the fast pace of a screen. And we've done education no favors. And so I say eight years old because your kids have had, and then again, it's still very limited, no iPhone until they're 16.

Very true.

Yeah.

Because before then, they... Go ahead.

Yeah.

Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, I mean, we can speak from experience too of those are similar parameters to what we've had as well when it comes to them being young. And just it really, I think for lot of parents who are listening, it does make things more difficult. It does make things more challenging. It does take more energy lots of times. There's many times you're just tired from working and you're like, dude, I wish they would just go to something else. But what I hear you saying and what we can also confirm just anecdotally in our lives

When we put that effort forth at those early years, that it's really paying off as they're becoming in those preteen years into the teenage years, because there isn't a battle about it. We're not constantly having to do because they don't believe it's better than the face to face. know, they don't value it higher than sitting down playing a board game. And I think that's partly like you're saying it's on the parents to also believe

to think that the board game that that child directed play is worthwhile and to really trust that even though it seems like you may just be doing nothing, it may be like super boring, that it's actually so life -giving. And I love like when you use that word relational poverty, it's really like that time I was spending playing cars for an hour, I'm just putting money in the bank with my son, right? I'm just like totally filling his up. So he's not gonna be poor

And he's going to feel the deep meaning of what it means to be connected to me because I'm sitting there doing something that he really enjoys, you know? And so I hope, I hope every parent who's hearing what you're saying. And I know many of might be saying, well, shoot, my kid's already older than that. That it's never too late that you can take these intentional steps and really believe in the value of your connection with your kid and your relationship. It is, it does mean more to them than any phone.

than any iPad, that that kid would, even though they may not say it, they would give up all of that to spend some time with you because they need

Now your teenagers are gonna give you a lot of pushback if they've been raised on that. I mean, it's not gonna be easy. I can tell you that. But just last night, my grandkids are here. They're 11 and nine, live in Texas. But anyway, their parents went out to eat. We went to Hobby Lobby and my grandson got a model car to put together. And they had mentioned something about watching some movie earlier in the day. And I said, when we get home, you wanna...

Do you want to watch that movie, you know, together, mom and dad's out and pop some popcorn like, nah, let's go home and we just want to go home and play games. Or let's go home and you know, like I said, eventually they were making, she was making scrunchies and JoJo was working on his car. It's like, it doesn't hold that fascination. It's not the draw that it is for many kids.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love it. So I wanna wrap up with that idea there that, you know, just like you're confirming that your presence, your relationship means way more to them than any of those screens. And even though, like you said, the teenagers specifically, if they've been raised on it will give a lot of pushback, it is actually something they desire.

I think the pushback is more just, they just don't know how to get it or they don't trust that it's going to be beneficial. And lots of times that's because the parent at an early age didn't believe that either. The parent also discounted their own presence in their kid's life. So I hope every parent listening to what Dr. Sears has said today, it's kind of raised your awareness. I know, you know, we're all thinking, there too much technology? Is my kid addicted to this stuff? And I think it hopefully has confirmed not the evils of technology, but

the value of you doing this child directed play to really help your kids not be poor relationally, to get those skills that they're gonna need to manage their life going forward and interacting with people and communicating with them. So I wanna thank you so much, Dr. Soros for spending the time with us, to share that with us. Thank you. And thank you so much for doing this work for families in Tulsa, but also throughout the world.

Thank

Okay, so for anybody listening, if they want to get in touch with you or learn more about what you're doing, Dr. Souris, how could they, where could they find that information? Can you tell them how to find out more about what you're doing?

Yes, I can go to the Connected Kids website. It's just www .connectedkids .org and there'll be a little icon that says contact us and it will come directly to me. Or you can just email me at Barbara at connectedkids .org. Either way.

That's fantastic. Yeah. So, so thank you. So if you have any more questions or you want to research more of what she's doing to help these families that are hurting and in need and she's doing such great work, please explore that. And so I hope you enjoyed the conversation today. I hope it gave you some tools and skills and information on how to change your kid's relationship to technology and hope you really take those steps today. Cause it's never too late to do that. Let's start changing this way. Cause our culture needs us to be more intentional with our kids about this stuff.

Thank you for listening and have a great

Thank