Episode 121

So much is asked of parents these days, moms and dads both, but specifically moms. In today's podcast, we want to talk about a term mental load. You know, basically the weight of all the things you're carrying in your mind. And we thought there'd be nobody better to discuss this particular subject with than Joanne from the No Guilt Mom podcast. We had a great time with her.

on their podcast about a month ago where we talked about how to resolve changing your parenting styles as a couple. So if you haven't checked that out, go check that that particular interview we did. But in this podcast, she's going to give you a specific way for moms and dads and kids to discuss the mental load and the stress and the overwhelm that lots of parents, know, almost all parents are dealing with on a daily basis and how we can we can share that load together rather than that load being on

or two people. So I really think you're going to enjoy this podcast. It's going to cause some great conversations with you and your kids. But before you jump in, take a moment to stop, review the podcast, please leave a five star review. We love those. We'd love a comment and we'd love to know how the podcast is impacting you and your family. That always means a lot to us. And I hope you enjoy this

Hello and welcome to the Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. And I'm Sarah. And we are so excited to have a special guest with us today. We had the privilege of being on a podcast about a month ago, about a month and a half ago called the No Guilt Mom Podcast with Joanne and Bree. And we really loved getting to have that conversation with them. And then as we explored the podcast more, we're like, dang, let's get them on our show, right?

So today we really want to introduce you to Joanne and what she's doing over there. And we're going to talk about a subject that I think is going to be so helpful to so many moms, but dads as well, because in this topic, this isn't just for moms. mean, this topic is going to give dads more information and understanding of what spouses are going through and as they're raising kids and doing all this stuff in their daily life. so without further ado, welcome

Thank you for having me. like we loved having you both on the podcast. And I have to say that that podcast episode is something that I refer to my clients all the time when they're trying to talk to their partner about child discipline, because it was such a frank discussion and Kyle, you sharing your like inner thoughts about why you were budding into behavior. It's really good and it's affecting a lot of people. So I wanna say thank you to you both for being on our podcast.

Well, good. we're glad. Yeah. Cause that was, mean, like we always try to tell our clients and we're helping coach them. Joanne is we just really feel like, we want the parenting piece to make the marriage stronger, to make it deeper. And we just see it so many times hurting marriages where they're falling apart because they can't communicate well over that. So I'm glad that's helping your people that are listening to your podcast. So if you could just tell audience who are you Joanne and what was the vision behind the no guilt mom podcast? How did that go get

Sure, so I actually started No -Guilt Mom about 11 years ago in a completely different form. I had just spent, like, I've had many careers. This is my third one, by the way. Before that, I worked in the entertainment industry in Hollywood, like in a major talent agency. I didn't like that. I wanted to go work with children. So I went back to school. I got my master's of education. I became an elementary school teacher.

Nice.

Mmm.

But then when my second was born, I decided to take the year off. And that's where I started what was then called a mom blog. And it was just an outlet for me to write, to share with other moms what I was doing, what was working. And as I started writing, I realized, hey, like I can take all of this knowledge I have from, managing a classroom to working with kids, to child development, to all of my education, and really help parents in the home feel

more confident in terms of their parenting. It became No Guilt Mom, and it was based on my own mom and what I saw growing up, because my mom did everything for us. every, like she sacrificed, I feel like her whole life to raise me and my sister. She had a full -time job, and then she came home and she made sure like the house was taken care of, that we had like clean clothes, that, I mean, my dad was home too. My dad is actually a high, was a high school teacher. He's retired now.

And so he was like the main parent doing appointments and everything. But I would look at my mom and I'm like, mom, like, why don't you like go out and do something for yourself? Why don't you go out with friends? She would complain about her, like how she felt too in her body. And I'm like, why don't you like, you have a gym at your work. You could totally take time for that. And her response was always like, no, you need me. Your dad needs me. I can't do those things.

And I could see, even growing up when I was like 13, 14 years old, how she felt like she needed to be there all the time for us and she couldn't have her outside activities. So when I became a mom, I resisted parenthood at first because I didn't want to give up my social life. I didn't want to give up my other ambitions. And I thought that's what you had to do to be a good parent. And it wasn't until...

I saw actually my husband's cousins. We went to go visit them. They were starting their own business and they had a two year old and they were just living their life. And the two year old was a part of it. And he was like banging pots and pans and like taking things out of the cupboards. And I'm like, this is, this is what I want. This is the life I want the, where I can pursue my own stuff and I could, you know, a good mom.

And that's where No Guilt Mom came from, encouraging all women just that the more you invest in yourself, it doesn't mean you're selfish and it doesn't mean you're a bad parent. It actually makes you better. And spreading that message and helping moms get rid of their guilt like that, I believe that women are a source of power and can create so much change in their relationships.

and in communication and in the world. And so that's my mission to really help women rise up and claim their confidence back. And that's No Guilt Mom.

Yeah, man, that's beautiful. Yeah, no, I love that when we came across your podcast, I started listening to it and I feel like what you just shared, all the moms, all the conversations I've had, we can relate. I think every mom, feel this immense pressure to be all things, to you want to create this beautiful life for your children. You know, you're trying to the pressure of, let's do cute little crafts and

let's bake cookies and let's go on play dates and let's, you just feel, you feel that, you know, you see all the adorable things everyone else is doing. make all these beautiful memories where we're all very relaxed and smiling and enjoying ourselves. There's a lot.

Yes. Yes. And I think you hit on a big thing there because you have these ideas that, my gosh, it's going to be like so much fun baking cookies and making crafts. But then like you plan this activity for your kids and they are not into it. And you're like, but I wanted to make these beautiful memories. You guys aren't on board here. Yeah, it's never like it never hits expectations if you go into.

Yes. Yes. Stop ruining our beautiful memories, dang it! Yes.

like parenting that way is very messy. Like one of the things we say at No Guilt Mom is embrace the messiness. That's where you get the best stories and really the best memories.

Well, and even I think about the stories, yeah, about the times the kid threw up on you or the times the kid was napping on you and peed on you. All those kind of stories are the ones that now we laugh about with the kids. Those are the ones we crack up the most about.

The time my son was a fire hydrant, basically, like a sprinkler, a lawn sprinkler with the throw up and just stood there in the living room and like did 90 degree turns. It was like a whole circle. It was so bad.

Yes. Yes. Yes. my God. Yes. my God. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So when I was listening to your podcast, there was one that I wanted to kind of jump into today. One that has been on my mind and I've talked to a lot of other moms about just mental load. And that's something that, you know, we've been doing this parenting thing for a long time.

And I feel like that one's sort of newer. You know, we've got this phrase now and it describes something that again, I feel like every mom can relate to, it's there. And so when that word came along for it, this description came along, I thought, yes, that's it. You're giving language to what I'm feeling. When I talk to these other moms, what we're all feeling and we haven't been able to figure out how to say it, what to do about it. So for start,

for starting, starting out, I'd love to hear just what is mental load? What is

So, mental load is everything that we as moms keep in our head of things that need to be done. It's like being a CEO of a company and keeping all of the company tasks and making them your responsibility. So, if you think about it from a boss kind of role, it's you are taking on the role of the driver, the assistant, the marketer, the head chef, the shopper, the personal shopper.

all of these things. And if you think about it, like it doesn't make sense for it to belong all with one person. It's like you have a tiny, like a bunch of tiny jobs in your head as a mom taking care of it. Plus you have the additional emotional load of keeping track of all the kids' emotional needs and being there to help them talk through feelings, talk through emotions, figure out if they're doing well. So it's just a culmination

every single thing that needs to be done to make a family run efficiently and run well.

Yes, I love that. In my head, I always almost imagine this web of string everywhere going a million different directions and you're in charge of all the strings. You're in charge of knowing what's coming up for each person and from their food and their clothes to their emotions, to their school, to their everything. And it's like, I have to keep track of...

What string is starting next, where it's going, how it's going to get there. What's going to happen after that string gets there. It's like, this is web of all these things happening. And, and I know even, you mean you're talked about with kids, but I think a lot of, I think you've mentioned this and I've, even, lot of moms will relate to feeling it for their partner too. You know, I'm feeling like I need to know he's going to

maybe, you know, depending on the family, maybe he's coming home hungry, needs dinner, or, you know, you're keeping track of your stuff, his stuff, their stuff, everyone's stuff, like you said. Well, I think it always comes out to I know there's many times where I've come home and thought, why isn't this taken care of? Or why isn't this done? And when I pointed out, that's the one thing I was thinking about. And she'll remind

When I come in, I see why isn't all of these different things done? And so I know you think that one thing is the most important, but now you're just saying prioritize it over the 10 I had in my head already, you know? And I'm just like, well, I wasn't even thinking about it. was on the nine. I was just thinking about this one.

Yeah, I mean, it's everything, all the juggle. And this is something that I talk about with my husband all the time. We've been talking about mental load ever since I read the book, Fair Play by Eve Radsky, which is the text that really brought this into popularity. It gave us this term, mental load, about everything that I am trying to handle during the day. it's a hard thing to get.

across at first, especially when you're talking with your partner about it. And the best thing like I've seen is like me and my husband have weekly dates that we hold of utmost importance. He's the one who put it on the calendar. We do a lunch date because it's really hard to get away from our kids at night. So we meet like every Wednesday and I like download him each night on everything that's going on and just trying to pass off responsibilities.

It is such an emotional thing to start talking about mental load. It is very emotional because my husband has told me like, he'll come home sometimes and he'll have no idea what he did wrong, but I will be in a bad mood. And I'm in a bad mood because I had to think about this, I had to think about that. Like I was alone during like a huge temper tantrum by one of the kids and

All of these things that you really don't think about when you're talking with your spouse about things you have to do, the emotional toll that everything takes as well.

Yes, yes, that's so true. Holding your kids excitement. One kid is excited because this great thing happened. Another kid is super sad because of some huge disappointment they had. I know sometimes I'm even aware that I'll walk by and I'll see that my daughter's favorite stuffed animal is, you know, squished between the cushions or something, you know? And I know that my mind even just keeps track of those little things.

And one moment she's like, I can't find it. It's on the couch, it's squished in between the cushions. That's why in the house we call her the finder. Because if you can't find something, mom probably knows where it is. And I would be like, I have no idea. I haven't seen that thing. she's keeping a mental track of everything, where it is, the last time it was seen. And so the kids trust that mom will eventually find it. But just that, you know, the extra things that we're holding, know, like you were

Yeah, that's so interesting that you bring up like the finder of lost things because I definitely do the same thing. Because, you know, we've been through the whole when our kids can't find a favorite toy or they can't find a shoe. And that puts us back maybe like 20 minutes in the morning and then they arrive to school just grumpy and complaining with a bad day. And I think that after going through that, as parents immediately

our nervous systems go on high alert so that anytime we see something out of place, we're like, check, it's right there, check, it's right there. And it's just that noticing thing that we automatically do as parents.

And it's one more thing that you're carrying. It's one more, you know, with all the other stuff, it's that one more thing. So when I was listening to your podcast, I'd like to bring up your little worksheet. Can you tell us about

Yes.

Yeah, so I don't like it's interesting that when we're having this discussion, because I don't think many moms know exactly how much they're carrying. You you might feel like it's a lot, but you're you're not quite aware exactly what the implications are. So I got into Google Sheets and I created this what I call a task calculator, which lists all of these common things that are done in the home.

And it has columns for you to mark if you are in charge of it, if your partner is in charge of it, or if your kids are in charge of it. And then it'll calculate how much of the labor each person is doing in the home, like in the home environment. And it gives you like little pie charts, which I love graphic representations.

Yeah, sure. Yeah, and it's great for kids too and husbands to see this

Yeah, so like seeing it and see exactly how much you have. I wanted to start conversations. It should never be something like, yeah, look how much I do and you don't do like that conversation is not going to go well. That's like, but I wanted to give women the confidence to be like, my gosh, like I do do a lot. And I want to get some of this off my plate.

Yeah, yeah, no.

And this is something that I can bring with my partner and ask, hey, can we create a plan to get some of these things off my plate so that I don't have to worry about them anymore? Because that's really the issue. We're keeping track of everything because I think in the back of the mind, we're like, well, if I don't keep track of it, then who will? How's it going to get done? And when you have that discussion with your partner and you actually like offload those things,

They get done. Now, what's funny is that they're not going to get done perfectly at first. And if I could share two stories about like things, because this is the biggest pushback that comes when you're trying to get rid of your mental load. Because as soon as you delegate a task to someone, it does become their responsibility, which also means that they have to deal with the repercussions when it's not done. Like it is not up to

to go in and save them and save them from any like, you know, disappointment or save them from any additional stress. It is theirs. So my husband's job is always like the trash. I don't remind him about the trash. It is his job to notice that the trash can is full, to take it out and to, you know, put a new trash bag in. That's just one of the things he does. And

When I first told him, I'm like, okay, I'm just, I'm gonna let this go. I'm gonna let this be your job and I'm not gonna worry about it. And he's like, cool, okay. And so one morning, like if the trash can is full, it's one of those under the counter trash cans, cause we have a dog and if it's not covered, she will get into the trash. If the trash can's full, then we start stacking things on the counter, right? On top of the trash can. And the night,

before we had had tacos from a takeout place. And so we had put the bag of like the rest of the tacos on top of the trash can. And I had gone and taken my dog Addie for a walk. And then I let her go up, unhooked her leash and went to go take a shower. When I came out, there were tacos all over the living room. There were like little bits of bag everywhere. There was like other trash, like lettuce, like hanging off of things, like every, it was.

my gosh, film is so gross.

completely disgusting. And I went in there and I'm like, at first I was mad and I'm like, my gosh, I can't believe he didn't take out the trash because now I'm gonna have to clean this up. And then I was like, wait, this is his. So since he didn't do it, it's on him. And all I did is I went in, he was taking a shower and I'm like, so Addy got into the trash and he's like, and I'm like, I'm gonna go take a walk.

And I left. And when I came back, of course, he had cleaned it up and it was all good. But that it's a hard thing to really let go of because at first your house is going to be a mess when they learn. Just like we learned, Sarah, like of going through all of those trials with kids, forgetting their stuff and noticing. That's why we notice because we went through that pain and we don't want to go through that pain anymore.

So when we get rid of mental load, we need to let others in our family go through the pain as well and figure their way out of

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I loved how even just hearing your podcast, told Kyle, I was just tearing up because it also, just feels so validating to, know, it and, it was just nice to even hear. though I talked to other moms, it was great to hear you all talking about it. This is a real thing. We're carrying all these pieces and the idea of shifting those pieces and having those conversations. You know, I know Kyle, we do talk about it,

but how much he would participate in those conversations. And, and I loved the idea of even transferring that, you know, having the conversation with my children and Hey, let's look at this. What, what are we all carrying? And, and I do think it would be hard because you feel that resistance in you when you hand it off to them. It's hard to really let it kind of fall to pieces because you know what needs to be done. And you, you, your instinct from the time they're born, you are the person who rushes

right? To make it all better because they're a month old and they can't make anything better. You know, and so it's hard to make that transition. have to be so intentional about, well, this didn't go well and you can handle it. You can handle the cleanup or whatever the you, you don't have that item that you need now because you forgot it. And you know, all those things are hard to do. It's hard to step back as a mom and just sort of feel like you're letting that fall apart.

you know, but I love this ship.

Yeah. And it's also like, it's also a good thing to know that like we're not entirely at fault too for taking on the entire mental load. Like there's other societal issues in play here that I feel like we don't address enough here in society. Cause what we try to do in like specifically the United States is we try to be like self -contained family units.

where it is up to the person to ensure their success or up to the family to ensure their success. And if they can't do it, well, that's something wrong with them. People in other countries, say like France, they have societal things in place where, for instance, the reasons moms at one month old, like when their babies are one month old,

and they're taking care of all the things is because dads can't stay home with the kids. They're usually not given paternity leave here. So they don't know the needs because they're not, they can't be around. And so when we start off life like that and we start off with mom being around the baby all the time, of course mom's gonna know the needs. It's not just because she's a mom, it's because she's there at home.

Yeah. Yeah.

It starts with that. It really does.

Totally, no, would, well, Joanne and I remember being a dad watching how the baby just responded so much better to her because of that too. And so then it was easy for me, especially with our oldest, to kind of just be like, okay, you got this. Like, I'll just give this to you because when I do it, you start to believe as a dad too, like, I'm just not good at this. You're better at it. So hopefully by the time they can walk and talk, I can then be better at that. And it was kind of a lie I was believing that

There was something magical Sarah had that I couldn't have. And so therefore it was her responsibility to take care of all of those needs early on. And it wasn't until we had a second and then a third finally, where then I was really jumping in at a much earlier age. And then I could see what she was having to do like late at night and like when the baby was and I was like, my gosh,

there's so many things that you're having to take care of. And it was actually really, it felt really good as a dad to be able to jump in there at night and hold the baby and help the baby go back to sleep and know that Sarah or even there was with our third man, I took Ellie for a drive sometimes the middle of the night around Tulsa, just like driving around till she fell asleep. And I felt like I was being a hero, like I was able to come in and help take that load off my wife. Whereas before I would have just been like,

This is what it means to be a mom, honey. I get it. I'm doing my thing. You're doing your thing. Let's all stick to our own lanes and take care of what we're responsible

Yeah. And it's amazingly lonely when that happens, the sticking to your lanes. And that's a lot of what you see traditional family structure like. I hear moms talk about on social media, yeah, well, I feel like it's my job to get up with the baby because he has to go to work the next day. But it's taking away from the dad as well that relationship with the child. And it's such a complicated issue. It goes so far

that we really have to look at changing how dads are allowed to be there for the child before we're going to see huge change in mental load. But we're already going to see the huge change in mental load because people are talking about it and people are like, my gosh, this needs to change. This needs to stop. So I'm hopeful.

Well, I even know, I even know Joanne that I know, I know Sarah has revealed this to me early on in our marriage, but I've seen it play out through our parenting is that a lie that Sarah lots of times believes is that it's all on her to do. Like she, she has to do it. And I'm sure I believe my mom believed, I think my mom believed the same thing and, so forth. And so there's many times, especially when we, before we even had kids where I could see she was doing all this stuff, she seemed stressed. And in my mind, I'm like, well, if she wants help, she can just ask

I believe it too.

She apparently doesn't want it right. And Sarah would say, it would actually help me if you would just say, can I help you? You know, and and and I first there was some resistance to that of like, why don't you just ask for it? You know, but to her, she's like, I don't feel like I can, I don't feel like I'm, it's my job to do this all. so I would try to be more conscious of that and seeing the stress and say, Hey, do you need some help? But now with the kids at 1412 and eight, like they can definitely help. And so there's times where they'll even come to me as

mom seems like she's in a bad mood or mom seems like she's stressed. Why doesn't she just ask us to help? I'm like, because listen, there's all of us have lies that we believe and the lie that mom has strongly and there's that she doesn't feel free to ask for that. So we need to go say to mom, how can I help you? Yeah. And then mom will gladly hand that off, but mom isn't going to be proactive and just hand that off because she believes it's her job to do.

And so I'm sure you run into moms all the time who feel the same way and you were saying you yourself have that thought too. But I wanted dads to hear that as well of just like, it's very important instead of saying, just change and just do it this way. Instead, I can be proactive, see the stress on my wife's face and go say, hey, can I help

Or just like noticing what she's doing and figuring it out like I think that's like one more mental load thing if Like actually verbalizing what needs to be done adds to stress because you're like, okay Well, if I have you take this then I have to spend like 15 minutes teaching you exactly how to do it and what to do So just see what needs to be done and do it. But I mean, it's it's a it's a hard bridge to cross It's something that I have

trying to teach my kids a lot about noticing what needs to be done. We're starting with the kitchen counters. And I'm like, okay. And I had to do it with my son because he's now picking up like after himself in the living room in the house because he's gotten a new habit of just leaving his shoes everywhere. He's 11. And so I'm like, okay, go do a sweep of the living room. Here's what a sweep is. We're going to look to see what you have around. And

pick it up and take it to your room. And so he went down there and he's like, okay, here and here. And I'm here down in the living room. And I'm like, there's like stuff over there. There's stuff over there. There's stuff over there. Like what is going on here? And so I had to physically tell him, I'm like, so when we do a sweep, you walk around and you see things from other points of view and directions, and then you notice them. And he's like, and I'm like, okay, so let's go over here and let's look around. What do you notice? And he's like,

Okay, those over there, those over there. So it's so interesting, how kids don't even know to do that, that it has to be explicitly taught, this noticing thing. But yeah, it's, yeah, just noticing.

Yeah. And the, the power of, know, where he was saying it's, it's great when a dad at the first starters, if the kids or the dad will, will come and say, how can I help? That's a great start, but man, does it blow you away when you just come down and the dining room table has been cleared off and you didn't have to notice it. You didn't have to be the person to organize the cleanup. didn't have to be, it was just done.

Yeah. It's a great start.

I mean, the difference between those, I do it myself, I ask and coordinate and organize it to be done, or it's just done. It's just amazing because it is, it is still work to have to organize it to be done. You know? Yeah.

Mm It is still work is absolutely work. I'm like taken to tears when I see that happening. My my husband just came off a pretty intense period of work. Like it's been like maybe the past year and a half. He he he transferred into a higher position. It was kind of a mess, his department. And so he was working long hours coming home late. And every time at our weekly date, I would bring up, you know, it's really hard when you like say you'll be home at this time and you're home an hour later.

And then you have to jump on a call an hour after that. Like, it's just really, really hard. And so it's taken a year for him to get things to the place where now we're seeing a little bit of relief and he's coming home. And like, my son just started going to Ninja Warrior classes. Like, this is his new thing. And it's, it's at 6 PM. And so I take him at 6 PM.

And I was having this conversation with my husband at our lunch and I'm like, okay, so dinner's not going to be ready. You know, it's, it's always what moms do. So if you could just take over dinner, like I could do all the dicing for you. could like cut up the chicken for you. I could do everything and know that I've been talking with him about mental load for like five, six years now. And he's like, or I could just dice everything and cut up all the chicken and everything like that. And I'm like, yeah, you can do that. I'm only let you do that.

And I mean like it wasn't ready by the time we got home because he got home a little late and like it took him You know the time I thought but it was it was fine. It was fine It was something that I could let go of so it takes time and it takes time to create change Especially in thought processes, but it does happen

What's the steps you would take, Joanne, and kind of wrapping up, there's two thoughts I have. One is, I love the idea of the sheet, the exercise that we'll provide. We'll put a link in the podcast notes for anybody who wants that task organizer. What's a couple steps a mom could take in helping get relief from this mental load or start changing this conversation in her

So yeah, first do the task list. If right now you're feeling that you have a lot on you, but you can't exactly verbalize how much it is that you have done, the task calculator that you'll have in the show notes is a great way to quantify it so that you have the confidence going into a discussion with your partner. But then just bring up the discussion and start talking about mental load.

because men experience mental load as well. but it's in a work environment. Typically it's that thing. If like you assign a project to somebody and then like that person, you know, doesn't really follow up very well. And so you have to be constantly on that person knowing in your head where that project is at all times. That's the same mental load that we have at home, but with our kids and with the family, in addition to the work or professional lives as well.

and it's a lot and it needs to be split up for like, because your own happiness is important too, especially as a mom. There is a tendency among all of us to be people pleasers, to wanna make everybody's lives easier, to do all the things for everybody else. And it actually leads to increased health risks down the road. There's the work of Dr. Gabor Mate.

And he mentions a, you love doctor. Yeah, he's a great one. The Myth of Normal. Have you read that book? It's good. In it, he discusses nurses who are in a ward of the hospital who dealt with ALS patients, Lou Gehrig's disease patients. And these nurses could pinpoint who would test positive for ALS versus who wouldn't before they even got the test results.

I haven't read that one.

The people who they pinpointed as would get it were the ones who were extremely nice. They were the people who everybody on the floor loved, who didn't put their needs at the forefront at all, who were so accepting of other people. Say a nurse was 20 minutes late coming in. They'd be like, it's fine, it's fine, it's all good. How are you? Those kind of people.

My grandma had ALS. It is a horrible, horrible disease. And when I read that in the book, I could really track it to her personality characteristics. I mean, she made meals for our whole family because my mom worked. And so my grandma helped us out by making like a lasagna for us a big thing of macaroni and beef, some chicken kash tori, we put it in our fridge, she would come over every week and do our laundry for

She was so selfless all the time doing stuff for other people. And yet, like, I don't even know what her needs were. I didn't get to really know her like that. I don't know what her wants were. I don't know what her life is like. I found out five years after she died, the woman spoke fluent Czech. Fluent! And I never heard it once. Ever! Because she, like,

Wow. my gosh. Wow. Wow.

I look at that and I look at like that kind of mentality of putting yourself before everyone else. And it's one of those things where if you keep doing it, you're not going to be around. it's the disease, like disease is going to get you in the end because it's just stress has to come out somehow. And if it doesn't come out through you, if you are holding these things back inside yourself, because you feel this is what you have to do to be a good mom, it's going to accumulate in your body. And it's going

form something that isn't going to be beneficial to anyone. So it is so important for women to do this work and to get this mental load off their plate because it is not your job and you deserve to be happy.

Well, what I love about it too, it could help your marriage. It could help you personally as a mom. But then this other aspect that I just wanted to end on, if you have any thoughts, it may be a deep question, but how do then we not pass this on to our daughters? You know, for all of us who have girls, we're raising up women who we want them.

to not have the same burden, the same idea that it's their job to do it all. Any thoughts on that? How any mom listening here could say, don't want my daughter to have the same belief system or same thought process.

have a 15 year old daughter and an 11 year old son, and we talk about it outright. And she knows the word mental load. She's able to pinpoint right away when my husband is not doing his expected jobs. She mentions that to me, which my husband didn't know they were noticing. And I had to tell him that they were telling me that. And so we just make it part of the conversation. It is hard. It's really, really hard to be a cycle breaker.

Mm -hmm.

because a lot of times when you're going through this work and you're instructing your kids about it and you are also trying not to use shame or guilt in your parenting and recognizing their feelings and allowing all feelings to be valid and heard, it can feel incredibly unfair that you weren't given the same as a child. So.

Yeah,

It's hard work. It's necessary work. The best thing to do is just to talk about it. Talk about it at the dinner table. Talk about what mental load is. Talk about how, like what you saw growing up and how you want to change that. And you never want them to be in a situation where one parent is taking on the entire load. And already I see those differences in my daughter and my son. My daughter is extremely

into fairness right now because she's 15. And she'll be like, nope, I'm not doing that. That's the boy's job. Nope, I'm not being talked to like that. Like they can't do that with me. Don't mansplain to me. So I'm pretty confident she's going to be okay.

Yes, yes, yeah, yeah. Well, and the reason why that's so important, I just want to wrap up with a story. I just had a kid I was helping last night going to college and this kid is typically taking on that role of putting aside his needs for the needs of his parents or even the needs of his girlfriend. And as he's going off to college and he's trying

to wrestle with going to college. He thinks it's time to maybe end the relationship. But he's really concerned because in the past, the girlfriend has expressed some kind of suicidal thoughts and expressed. So he's thinking about just continuing the relationship even though he wants to end it because he's afraid of that outcome, right? And so it was kind of interesting because we had started the whole time, the beginning of the session, just talking about

He doesn't understand why other kids his age feel like they can just say, I don't want to do that, or I don't like that. so he's always just pushed through or just done whatever was asked of him. And so it was interesting as we got into this conversation about this relation, like, wow, isn't that interesting that in this case, I think you need to do what those other people are doing. I think you need to be able to maybe advocate for your own needs here instead of just continuing on. And I think that's actually healthy for you and

person, you know, that other person would want you to do that. And so I just hope everybody who's listening is feeling this sense of hope and empowerment about, you know, going forward. What I think would be great when I heard you say is let's get that task list. You know, please find that in the notes, grab a hold of that sign up and get that and then fill it out. And I know I'm excited to do this with Sarah, want to fill it out. And I want to look at that pie chart. I want to look at you I want the kids to see it because I know Sarah is a phenomenal mom.

Yeah.

I know Sarah does way more than I ever see or imagine she does because most of the stuff's happening while I'm gone doing other things, right? I come home and I'm just like, cool. It looks like you got that done. But there's so many things I know that she's killing it. And I want to see what that is. And I want to give her the strength to ask me to say, Hey, can you take this on or give it to the kids? Ask the kids to take that on. And it's actually going to be a way they're going to see mom valuing herself more.

advocating for our own needs, and that's gonna help them in the long run to not get caught up in co -dependent relationships where it's all on them to take the load on. So I really appreciate the conversation, Joanne. Yeah, thanks for being here. And you taking the time. Tell people how they can find out more information on how to connect with

Mm -hmm.

Exactly.

sure you can go to no guilt mom .com and that we have a link to our no guilt mom podcast. So check us out there every Tuesday and Thursday we have a new episode for you and you'll also find a link to the no guilt mom Instagram as well where I am there most every day with something new to inspire you in terms of your parenting or your mental load or just like the permission to go out and have fun. So it's no guilt mom .com

Great. Thank you so much, Joanne. And to all the listeners, I hope that was really helpful. Check it out and you'll be so inspired and encouraged to go be not only the mom, but the dad that you're wanting to be. Cause this work isn't just for moms. It's also for dads as well. So just appreciate you taking the time to listen and have a wonderful

Thank you.