Episode 138

If you are a parent with one, two or more kids, imagine 10 kids. You know, life can be messy sometimes raising kids with all the distraction in this world. It can be so difficult to really connect with them and to really, you know, have close relationships because we're all so busy doing stuff. Lots of times good stuff, right? But we also know if you've been listening to this podcast long enough that we've got to have this deep connection with them.

 

if we really want to do this parenting journey well. So we wanted to bring on some guests who know what they're talking about raising 10 kids. That's right, 10 kids. It's Mike and Alicia Hernan from the Messy Family Podcast. And we wanted to have them on to share their tips about how they've learned over the past two decades raising these kids on how to be intentional with each of these kids, because it is a challenge. But I also want to add a little caveat to this episode. know, Sara and I

 

And doing these podcasts, we've always tried to do our best to give you the best quality product you can have audio visual, if you're watching on YouTube and we're always trying to improve that. But we're also about progress, not perfection that we think that's part of our parenting model too. It's always about just growing and learning and getting better, but you're going to make mistakes. We're never here advocating for perfect parenting or acting like we're perfect parents. We mess up. We don't do things the way we'd like, and we learn and grow just like our kids do.

 

And so this particular podcast, when we did it, we were excited, thought it had great content for you, but the audio wasn't quite up to par what we'd want. So I hope you'll bear with us throughout this, where some of the audio is kind of spotty in certain places, but we did our best to clean it up, to make it to where it still provides a lot of value for you and your family. So I hope you'll give it a listen, because I think you're going to get some great insight. And at the end, if you stay till the end, Alicia, she's going to really share some

 

new insights that she's doing on how moms can better connect to their teenage daughters. And she's got some great tips on how to strengthen that relationship throughout the teenage years so that you too are able to create the relationship you want all the way into those adult years. So without further ado, I want to get to that interview. Take a moment, please to rate, review, comment on this podcast. So that way more and more people have access to it and I won't delay any longer. I hope you enjoy the interview.

 

  

with Mike and Alicia Hernan from the Messy Family Podcast.

 

  

Hello and welcome to The Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. Hey, and I'm Sarah. And you know, Sarah, families can be messy sometimes. Yes, they can. Do agree? Like, I know we've got three kids and it can be messy on the emotions, just the chaos, all that stuff, right? Could you imagine having 10? No. I think having- I think beautiful, but Yeah, it would be beautiful. It would be so wonderful, but it also be kind of messy or possibly, right? Possibly. And so that's where today listeners, we want to introduce you

 

  

Thank

 

  

to a couple who's got a great podcast called the messy family podcast. And I've already given the secret away. The reason why their family's so messy is because they've got 10 kids. They're raising 10 kids and their ages from like in the twenties, right? All the way down to the teens now. So they've been through it. And so I want to welcome Mike and Alicia Hernan to the podcast. Hello.

 

  

It is great to be on a show with you guys. And Kyle and Sarah, 100 % could have 10 kids. It's not really that hard. You guys are so awesome. You should.

 

  

You

 

Yeah. Well, what we know is funny, Alicia, we did hear somebody told us that having two is the hardest and they're like, once you're done with two, when you get to three, like it actually starts getting easier because then, and then we found that to be true. Then our oldest was now helping us with the youngest. And it was like, this is so cool. Where it was just two. was like you had them, they were so young and they were so messy and it was difficult to really like wrangle them. Whereas once you had three, it was like, okay, now this oldest one can start helping with this.

 

  

Right.

 

  

It made it much easier.

 

  

Well, for us, it was actually three, three broke me. We went from man to man, we zone, defense, and everything changed. But for us, it got easier after three. I really think it's the question is how close together your children are. I think it's more that because our first three were all like 16 months apart. So that's why we're like, you know, it's all crazy.

 

  

Yes, yes. I agree.

 

  

But I think that when they get older and if they're a little bit further apart, does get easier. So we kind of like figured things out and then our kids weren't so close together. So I kind of started spreading that a little bit. yeah, when we had four, it was just like, yeah, this is what we do. Like we just have kids. We're all in.

 

  

Thanks.

 

  

Yes.

 

  

Yeah, yeah. Well, so you guys have been doing your podcasts for a decade, right?

 

  

I can't even believe it when you say that. Yes, that's true. Yes.

 

  

Yeah, yes, you've been doing your podcast for a decade and your kids, can you, what are the ages of them again? Where do they range from?

 

  

Our oldest is 29, our youngest is 12, and we have eight grandchildren now. And so, and it's so great because having the grandkids and seven of them live in Steubenville with us, like they live in our town, so we get to see them a lot. But it's a really good reminder of how toddlers and infants, take up so much energy. When I have my grandkids over, I say to my daughter, my daughter,

 

get anything done. Like I forget so quickly. But it's so great to have them because it keeps us very fresh. Fresh and talking to parents who are who have those children like in the home right now. So yeah, it's a good reminder.

 

  

Yes.

 

Yeah. So what was the vision behind starting the Messy Family Podcast, the website, all the stuff you're doing? Where did that start from?

 

  

Well, first, just a brief background, right? So I come from a divorced family. My parents got divorced before I got into high school. Now, I early on, I was just hungry for what is marriage and family? Because I knew what I experienced in my home growing up. That wasn't what marriage is supposed to be like. This wasn't what the family that God designed, right? I didn't understand. And so I kept looking for mentors. kept looking for what does this look like? I remember

 

kind of couch surfing in high school looking for the right parent, perfect, and in my journey through some hearing and so forth, through all of that, really led me to say, I think one of the greatest things we have to be a part of in this world is a family. And so that was early seeds planted because of my childhood. And I was really looking for a woman who wanted to have a beautiful family, right?

 

And I found one who not only she came from a large family as well. we have 10 kids, but she came from a family of 10. I'm the second of 10. darling crazy and bonkers. This is part of our world domination.

 

  

Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

  

You

 

  

And but early on in our marriage, we did some marriage prep and we led some couples Bible studies and different like Gary Smalley videos, all these different things. But our heart was always oriented towards that. But then we had a bunch of kids and we just focused in on our own life. And as we got towards in the last 10, 12 years, had more and more younger couples coming to us asking for advice. And they kept saying to us, you guys need to do a podcast.

 

And what was your response? I was like, what's a podcast? know, years ago, and I remember, I remember podcast being explained to me, like, it's like an internet radio show. And I was like, all right. But Mike just is really techie. And so he just figured out how to do the podcast. And at the very beginning, you know, when we started when our daughter Claire, who's our 10th was two years old, you know, I, be like, come on, we got to do the podcast today. We got to do a podcast. was like, I don't want to do the podcast.

 

  

Hmm.

 

I know.

 

  

get up because I'm so exhausted. But when we started doing it, honestly, it gave us so much life. It gave us so much life for us to kind of reflect on why are we doing what we're doing? And just to really share with couples the wisdom that we were able to learn from other great sources. And so I feel like we've been learning and growing throughout the last 10 years, of course,

 

  

Mmm. Yeah.

 

  

Yeah.

 

  

And then we're able to share that with other couples. So we kind of see ourselves as like an older brother or sister. You know, like we're just, we're not experts. We're not counselors like you guys, which we so appreciate. And we love pointing people to those. We're more like just practitioners, right? We are just a little bit further ahead than other people. And we can say, Hey guys, here's things that we learned. Here's things that, know, Hey, don't try this because this was messed up, you know, or whatever, or here's our failures.

 

  

Yeah.

 

  

But then here's some great resources and kind of like helping triage people sometimes because people, you know, parents, it's really, really hard to be a parent today. I really believe this is one of the most challenging times probably in the history of humanity, if you will, to be a parent because of such strong cultural forces. we're just blessed to come into contact with so many beautiful families, as I know that you guys are as well.

 

  

Yeah. Well, I think the challenge too in this day and age is also just the fast changes, you know, when it comes to technology and like, man, we look at how much it's changed. It's just like things were just so much slower. It was slower when we were growing up, you know, like we were running around outside for hours and you know, there wasn't always like now there's so many ways kids are pulled to and fro from, you know, lot of it is opportunity.

 

  

Totally.

 

  

Yes.

 

  

but it's all about what is the best as opposed to just what is what is a good or fun thing to do? What is the best thing to be doing with my time? And I we really feel compassion for for kids having to wrestle with that. I mean, even like I was thinking this one kid was talking about being at school and this he kind of like was itching his nose and some other kid took a video of that and then like posted it about him picking his nose and like, mean, like I was telling Saralike back in the day, man, if someone didn't like you, they just said they didn't like you but now they'll post it.

 

  

Yes.

 

  

Yes.

 

  

right

 

  

And like everybody's laughing at it. And I'm like, my gosh, you'd be so anxious. constant pressure that some, could be recorded at any moment and just trying to survive the day to day social dynamics and everything coming at them. I remember our kids were so aware of it when they were little is even there's one time a storm happened here in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And I was trying to get out of the storm. I went to the mall.

 

  

Yeah, absolutely.

 

  

because the tornado signs were going off and I got the kids over and they went inside and I went to park the car. It was a dumb thing. I don't know why I was parking the car, but it was like, I went to go park the car with it. And they were only, our oldest was only like six and she ran in, she slipped cause it was wet and she like, he like hit her head a little bit. And she wasn't with me. wasn't with me. was like run inside because he wanted to get them safe while he parked the car. Yeah. But, one of the things that Abby brought up was like, I wonder if somebody recorded that.

 

  

you

 

  

shoot

 

  

Of course!

 

  

I would have looked so dumb or something. I was like, what?

 

  

my Lord, that was the first thing that came through. Wow. in addition to what our kids have, the pressures they have, we as parents are being caught up into this. And what I would characterize as the tyranny of experts, right? Meaning on social media and throughout the world, it's not that we don't have enough information about parenting. It's just that there's so much that it's like, I don't feel like I can ever measure up.

 

  

Yes. She said, what is something recording me running in there? Yeah, I'm falling down.

 

  

Mm-hmm.

 

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

 

  

Yes.

 

  

Yes.

 

  

But I feel like I'm, parents have always probably felt like failures on some level, but now I've got a million people telling me I'm doing it wrong. And that if you don't do this perfect worry, you will irreparably emotionally, psychologically damage your child for the rest of their lives. Like, the picture, you know? So it's like, there's a lot going on. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

 

  

That's right.

 

  

Yes. Yes. I remember that feeling because even going to all the trainings and everything, I remember saying, okay, okay, the first three years, the first three years, they're just really got to get those first three years right. it is a lot and it doesn't allow you sometimes space to just be a parent. we almost get, there can be so much anxiety around it just to be able to relax and enjoy the process in midst of trying to make it all perfect, you know? Yeah.

 

  

Yes.

 

  

Yes.

 

  

Yes.

 

  

Well, and even that's a way love about the name of your podcast, messy family is obviously you've kind of embraced that. in, the same way we also tell people all the time, anytime we do speaking, you know, conferences or any kind of like, you know, meeting with parents is I'm not trying to teach you how to be perfect. Like that's actually would be really unhealthy and actually really gross to, be like, that's the goal because it's just not the goal. The goal is to be able to embrace the good, the bad, the ugly, all those aspects.

 

  

Yeah.

 

  

Yeah.

 

  

And that's really where beauty lies is within that. So it sounds like you guys have learned to embrace that, right? That perfection isn't the goal. Your kids forced you into it, right? The kids are like.

 

  

Yeah. We've been forced into it. What do we like in an act? Well, it's kind of like what we were talking about before, Kyle. I think the answer for parents is take in the information and then you kind of work on yourself, be the best person you can be, and then just go into parenting with confidence and humility. Those are the two things we talk about. Confidence and humility.

 

And it's not about getting it perfectly right. It's about, think that when parents just the fact that they're listening to podcasts like yours or like ours or they're availing themselves of resources, take it all in. then you just have to sift through it, you and just recognize that, hey, maybe you're not going to do everything right. But the fact that you're trying is almost a victory in itself because there's so many people that don't even care.

 

or that are not trying to be better people, you know, but I think that if you are, if your focus is, you know what, I want to be the best person I can be and I want to learn, I'm going to learn as I go, your kids are going to be fine. It's going to be fine because it's not about doing it perfectly. I feel like it's more about the process, you know, the process of learning and repairing. And, and I can tell you that, and I'm sure all of us feel the same. I look back on who I was.

 

I had children, even who I was 10 years ago, I have changed and matured so much. And it's because of my kids. It's because of my kids, because I, they have taught me, right? The kids are teaching me in many ways about my own weaknesses, my own failures, where I need to grow. And as I grow, I can be a better parent. So it's not necessarily about, I do appreciate sometimes like,

 

learning different techniques and words to say and all of that. I appreciate that, but I also have to recognize that that's not where my children's emotional health is going to come from. It's going to come from me and my, if I am comfortable in who I am and that process of relationship and repair. You know, so, and I know that you guys are all preaching the same thing.

 

  

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

 

  

Yeah, yeah.

 

  

Well, and I have to do it a lot too. So I have to do it a lot, but yeah, that's something we emphasize as well that the best, when I was a school counselor, the best teachers were the best learners. know, the teachers that were really, not doing things well in the classroom or ones they thought they were just done learning. You know? And so that's where I took that into our parent coaching that we do of just that, your stance for both of you is I'm just a great, like it's really about a stance towards.

 

  

Yes, yeah.

 

  

Yes.

 

Hang in.

 

  

these situations. I'm here to learn from you because how can I teach you if I don't know how best you learn, right? And in same way, if that kid sees you as that receptive learner, then man, I remember, man, that would feel so powerful as a kid to go, you're willing and open to learn from me. I have something to offer you. that's awesome, you know, cause now it's not about me being perfect or you being

 

  

Exactly. That's so true. And I work part of this, like, it's not about what, it is about what we know, but the people don't care what that old quote, right? People don't know, don't care about how much you know until they know how much you care. And it's like, at the end of the day, I feel like what I have discovered after almost 30 years of parenting is that I've got to free myself up.

 

  

Yeah. Yes, completely.

 

  

to love my kids more effectively. I thought I was actually a pretty good person until I had kids. And they were like a doctor helping me identify, you've got to meet you with anger. You've got to work on your impatience. And all of that helped bring things down and said, okay, this is about me being formed into who I am meant to be, becoming a parent that my kids need and want.

 

  

Yeah. Yeah.

 

  

Ha!

 

  

Yeah.

 

  

I realized I wasn't formed. And again, whether it be by background or by experience or just whatever, parenting is in some ways natural, in other ways it's not an inborn skill. We can learn, we can grow. And I love that if I look back, I would say this, whether we say messy too, is that too many people look out at that perfect image, have this ideal of what they think the perfect parent should be. And they all feel, we all feel we fall short.

 

  

Yeah, sure.

 

  

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah,

 

  

Yeah.

 

  

And we've got accept where we are, but not accept it so that we while on it and don't change because too many times we're measuring ourself between the gap between where we are today and that ideal as opposed to looking at the game. Where were we a year ago versus today? Where were we like 10 years ago, five years ago? For us 30 years ago, where were we? And I'm like, I'm actually

 

  

Yeah. Yeah.

 

  

Yeah.

 

  

on the right path. still got a lot of room to cover here, recognizing we're moving forward. It's about progress. It's about moving towards the ideal, not about attaining it per se, because that will give us stress, anxiety, and we will be grasping.

 

  

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

 

  

Yes, 100 % of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, sort of that embracing, I am not perfect, that's okay. That humility that you mentioned before of coming into parenting, that I am a work in progress and I'm doing that. So what was coming to my mind as you're saying that, it's hard to find that space. I'm just trying to get lunch on the table and laundry done. And so with 10,

 

  

Yeah. Yeah.

 

  

Thank

 

  

people running around your house. How did you do that? Or do you have tips or like, how can I, I want to develop myself. want to grow. How do I do that while I'm trying to just do each day? Yeah.

 

  

Hahaha!

 

  

Yes. Okay. So I'm going to tell you the secret weapon of an effective family. You ready? Okay. The secret weapon is your family culture. Okay. The culture within the home speaks more effectively than anything that you can do and phrase that you can say. It's like, it's like your operating system within your home. Yeah. It's like that operating system.

 

  

I'm gonna mark this. I'm gonna mark this. Okay, go!

 

  

Mmm, yeah.

 

  

that's comprised of and it communicates these expectations and beliefs and values to your children because it's the way that you live your life. And so in our home, part of our family culture, especially having so many kids was that mom and dad are not the slaves of the home, okay? Everyone contributes. We are all contributing to the upkeep. We are also all contributing

 

to the love and affection that those kids need. So it's not just like, I have to provide for all of the emotional and physical needs for every child. No, no, that's, that is, that's first of all, impossible, right? But we can all, can create a culture within the home where people feel seen and known by me, but also by each other. See, that's the beautiful thing that I've experienced in growing up.

 

in part of a big family, it was like my brothers and sisters were such a huge part of my childhood. Like my parents, of course, I kind of like, I've heard this once said that parents like create the outlines of your life, but your siblings color it in, you know? And so it's like my parents kind of decided that big thing. They set up the culture in the home, the structures, the boundaries. But then it was, I was learning those things by interacting with my siblings.

 

  

Yeah.

 

  

So when I grew up and this is how we raised our kids, we're making lunch for each other. They're helping each other to do that. The big kids are watching the older kids. They're bathing their little brothers and sisters. They're reading them books and things like that. They're spending time together. My teenage sons, I know that they've had things that were really hard for them to go through.

 

They're going to their older sisters, you know, to look for that advice. They're looking to their older brother. And so it's a beautiful community. But the thing is that didn't happen by accident. and I had to be very intentional about what we communicated to them, how we taught them forgiveness, how we would spend time together as a family, how we relate to each other, right? Like they're watching that.

 

  

Yes.

 

  

Yeah, yeah.

 

  

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

 

  

and we're modeling that, what your marriage is like. We're watching how we relate to each one of the children. So it's this beautiful way that really the Lord provides for families by giving us each other so we can all be working together. And so I think when you have that space and you are living a life of somewhat of order, you know, have to have prioritized things within your life.

 

  

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes.

 

  

You can't have it all. You can't have And that's the reality. And I don't mean to, because it's hard whether you have one kids or two. Remember, it doesn't necessarily always factor in, you know, it's not an exponential growth, you know, in that regard. But for every one of us, we need to make decisions about what are we going to communicate to our kids? What is our culture going to communicate to our kids?

 

  

Mm-hmm.

 

  

And you have to say yes to certain things and then protect that yes with a thousand no's to other things. And so, yes to say our family is going to be ordered, it is going to be little messy in some areas, but we're going say what's most vital? Our marriage, us as a couple saying we have a vision of where we're going. We don't have an R figured out, but we have a vision of where we're going. And then the sooner we can kind of implement that in our home. Because for us, knowing that

 

  

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

  

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

 

  

Our family isn't a child centered home. It's not, you know, but the primary relationship is our marriage. And out of that, you know, our kids, and again, part of it is coming from my own background of divorce, but recognizing I want my kids to have the safety and the surety that our marriage is that fixed point in their life that they don't have to worry. They can be at peace.

 

  

Yeah.

 

  

Yeah. Yeah.

 

  

Well, what I hear you say, Mike, it's like the foundation. So it's like the foundation that the house is going to be built on. And if that foundation is cracked or unsettled, then even if we build a beautiful house, it's all going to fall apart. the kids, the kids are going to feel less anxious. I remember Mike something that whenever I was getting training in the parenting work I do, Dr. Becky Bailey, she came out of left field with a statement of said, if you want your kids to know how to do healthy conflict resolution.

 

  

That's right.

 

  

that isn't taught by how you do it with them. It's actually taught with how you do it with your spouse. Because she says that the kid is watching you and how you do it with mom or dad. And they're going like, that's how I'm supposed to do it. Like it's all fine and good how mom and dad do with me, but that's really how it's done. And so that was kind of like a wake up call for me that I'd gotten kind of sloppy in how I did it with Sarah. And I'd been like super focused on doing it right with the kids.

 

  

Yes.

 

  

but I had let myself start raising my voice when I'm talking to SaraMoore, started being more critical. And I was like, man, that's right, the kids are watching. And if I want them to someday have healthy relationships, healthy marriages, I would really need to make sure the skill is being practiced here and then transferred to them.

 

  

And so.

 

  

You know what I realized just like two weeks ago that the whole many of the ideas of gentle parenting, we need to be gentle married. We need to take those ideas and use them with our spouse. They're the ones that really need that and to walk with them. So anyway, it's so funny that you said that because it's like, yes, so many things that we do, we focus on doing with our kids.

 

  

Yep. Yes!

 

  

Yeah.

 

  

Yeah.

 

  

But it's really modeling that with our spouses is really so, important. And we go on and on. We don't have a problem talking. So cut me off.

 

  

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I remember this when you said that thing about the siblings too, that really has been such a beautiful part of what we've seen happen in our home as well is it's not that we had horrible relationships with our siblings, but the closeness and the openness our kids feel. And I remember seeing it when they were little, something that we would do when they had big emotions and they were getting dysregulated is we had a space in our home where we would go there to be able to you know, kind of.

 

  

Yes.

 

  

do some deep breathing, calm down, that there's activities that they could do to help them kind of regulate themselves. And sometimes our oldest, Abby was just resistant to that. She didn't want to go back there. She was mad and she wanted to stay there. Yeah, she's just like, I'm not going to let go of this, right? And so some of that, like Abby, come on, Abby, let's go back and let's, know, and she, I'm not going. And then her two-year-old little brother would say, Abby, will you go with me? And then Abby, Abby, every time would say,

 

  

OHHHH

 

  

Yes, I'll go with you. they would go back there and Brennan would be helping her take some deep breaths. It was so interesting because really there was no power struggle between them. The power struggle was between me and her. And then I was thinking, that is so cool that this was an unintended consequence where we were teaching the siblings how to help each other.

 

  

Yes. Great.

 

  

Rather than like, like, like in my home, I was looking at how to get my sibling in trouble. Because if my sibling got in trouble, then mom and dad were happier with me. Maybe like, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's take me out and get that special treat for me because I didn't do that thing he did. Right. So you were always kind of looking at the other one to fail rather than looking for how can I help you succeed? Yeah.

 

  

Absolutely.

 

  

Yeah.

 

  

Right. And that is part of your family culture, right? You define that and whether you did it with great intention on the front end, like we talked about having 10 kids, how do you do it, right? We make sure our kids are not one of the herd. And again, that can happen whether you're just busy and have one kid or you have 10 kids. We're all busy. And it's a matter of taking time and saying, I want to spend special time one on one just with you. And there's going to be a ton of time, but it has to be intentional.

 

  

Yes.

 

  

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

  

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

 

  

Yeah. And communicate something that you're valued, you are my beloved child, and that I care about you. Right? Yeah. And what we didn't realize, and we didn't have this as part of our intention, is that as our kids have gotten older, they have repeated that with their younger siblings. So that when they came back from college or when they're adult, you know, married themselves, they still take time to be with their younger siblings. And they're loving on them. So the beauty of having all these

 

  

It's awesome.

 

  

crazy kids that definitely make some messy times, in that there's a whole much more love to go around that feeling, because we're imperfect, and now we've got more people to replicate if you will that love in our home, which is awesome.

 

  

Mm-hmm.

 

  

Yeah, that is good. Yeah, that's really beautiful. Cause that was one thing I, I wanted to ask you is like, how, how does, feel like in a group that size, cause even in a smaller family, you feel like voices can get lost and how, what would you say to parents? know, how can they make sure each child is heard? How do they get heard and know that they're contributing to this family culture you're trying to create?

 

  

Yes.

 

  

And like we told you, this is coming from two middle kids who it was easy for us not to be heard. we're like, what about their middle kids? How are they being seen and heard?

 

  

BOOT

 

  

Well, first I'll just say this on the front end. We're messy because we're imperfect, right? We're messy in part because we're still working on it. But you do your best to set up systems to make sure people on a regular basis are being reached out to. And so we try to create and again, at our ideal moments, we're having regular family meetings, right?

 

Simple time where we're visiting with all the kids. We go through, hey, what were you most proud of? What did you regret? What would you want to do differently? Just to kind of share their hearts and say, was the hardest this week? Just to give them the opportunity. And when you start young, when they're teenagers, they're very comfortable with sharing their heart. So that their siblings, as well as us, are hearing that. But we also add into our evening prayers a time for forgiveness.

 

  

Yes.

 

  

because every one of us, parents included, we mess up. And it's not the fact that we do mess up or we don't hear somebody or miss them. It's that we've created an environment where it's expected that we're gonna repair that relationship, that we're gonna seek forgiveness and restore. Because we've had an adult child come to us and say, hey, when I was young, you missed out on this. And it was hard to receive. And, but,

 

  

Yeah.

 

  

Yeah. Yeah.

 

  

what the beauty was that I perceive is that we created a safe enough place for them to come forward and that we're intentional about looking for it, but we're also creating an environment where that's the natural disposition. And we make it very clear from the front end that we aren't perfect, but we want to know, we want to be in relationship. We want you to be seen and heard. And we have enough investments of special time, of group time, of working through junk together that they have the confidence

 

  

Yep.

 

  

it to bring that up at some point. And I feel like we have different routines and rituals within our home. for birthdays, we go around and everyone is honored for their birthdays. basically every sibling, every person who's there honors and says, I love you because you know, I'm honored because and then think of something specific, you know, and, we get that such a beautiful time. Mostly ending with crying, which I, know, doesn't have to be for everybody.

 

  

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

 

  

And then we have family dinners, you know, like I know this is like a basic thing of families having dinner together. So powerful. That is our time for everyone to be seeing her people sharing highs and lows, you know, of their day, working together, doing chores together, having a ritual throughout the week that, okay, Saturday is going to be the day that we do chores or go to people's sporting events.

 

But then Sunday is Family Day, right? That's the day that we're going to go to a museum. We're going to go to a park. We're going to stay home and watch football. You know, like we're going to play games. All of those rituals that you create within your home gives all of the kids that opportunity to be seen and to be related to and to really feel loved. And then like Mike was saying, there's that special one-on-one time. But I think that when you start creating those systems or rituals or routines or whatever you want to call them,

 

  

Yes. Yeah.

 

  

But you have to have a rhythm of life in your home and move life intentionally. Don't just let life happen to you because then yes, it is chaos. And you know, I mean, I've known people from big families who did not feel seen and did not have a good experience growing up with a big family. Absolutely. But you know what? I've also met people from two kids, three kids, but also didn't have a kid.

 

  

Yes.

 

  

Yes, exactly.

 

  

I'm beginning to think that maybe it doesn't. the size. Maybe it's not the size. Maybe it's the intentionality. yeah, it's either way.

 

  

Yeah, yeah, Yeah, that's good. Well, and I'd love for you to take a moment. I know we talked before we got together to do the podcast about how you're starting something new, where you're really wanting to help moms kind of do that, create some of these things where they're teenage daughters and them can really, so if you could tell more about that, what are you doing now?

 

  

Actually, this is really growing out of a tradition that I've had growing up with my mom and that I've continued with my daughters to help them feel seen and known. And that is taking time to talk to them when they're between the ages of like 10 and 12 years old about the changes that come in adolescence. And so this is a mother-daughter experience. And so then we took that experience that I did with my kids.

 

  

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

 

  

my daughters and move that into a course, an on demand course that's available for any moms and daughters to do. They get a workbook for mom, a workbook for daughters. And the idea of this course is to set mom up as a trusted guide for her daughter throughout adolescence. Because you know what? I'm not going to be there, right? Mom is going to be there. So I will, go through, a five session course.

 

  

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

 

  

and we go through explaining the changes that happen in adolescence physically, but also socially. We talk about emotions, we talk about fashion, we talk about beauty, you know, all of those things. I introduce the topic, talking to the daughters, but then throughout the time, I'll say things like, okay, let's pause and have a conversation with mom. Why don't you ask mom about her experience growing up? Why don't you ask mom about her personal style? All of this. So I kind of like guide the conversation.

 

  

Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

 

  

But really the goal is to introduce these topics for mom, just kind of a very systematic way, but to set her up as that trusted guide for her daughter. And I've done the course live on Zoom for about four or five years. Throughout that time, gotten lots of great feedback from moms, really refined and honed in on this course. And now it is available on demand at messyfamilyproject.org.

 

  

Yeah.

 

  

That's awesome. That's so good. Yeah. And I know for all the listeners, we will provide that link and be good. You know, you're going to give us that link. It'd also be good to have a link to, to where they could get that family culture thing. Cause you also have that, right? You also have a PDF. We want to make sure we provide that. And I want to say kind of in wrapping up, I know several times you guys have.

 

  

Yes. Yes, yes, yes!

 

  

inserted faith into the conversation, right? So I know messy family is a Catholic, know, it's very Catholic oriented, right? If your faith is very important to you and what you do with your kids, right? And so I wanted to ask you, why is that so central to what you do with your kids? Why is that so important to you? Why are you passionate about that? Because I know there's a lot of different ways you could have done it, but making that a central piece, how come that's a value you have?

 

  

Yes. Yes.

 

  

For me, as mentioned about my divorce family growing up, I had an issue with who God was as father. And the fact that God has chosen to reveal himself as a father to us, I believe that I couldn't, and I think this is true for all of us, that we can't measure the ideal against another human. We need to say our desire, what our kids need is more than what we can bring to the table.

 

And for us, understanding who God the Father is and that I am first His beloved Son allows me to be a father that I could never be to my children. Because now I, because there really are a priority of the order of identity. Meaning, before you were a husband or wife, before you were a mom and a dad, you were a son or daughter. And knowing that we are a beloved son or a cherished daughter.

 

  

Yeah.

 

  

gives me freedom to walk into this marriage as a full man, to have the blessing of God the Father on me and knowing His delight and His love for me frees me up to love my wife in a way that I couldn't. And then together to share that with our kids, we believe that that's God's plan. You know, we believe that is integral to how I view the world.

 

  

Well, Mike, think if I can tie that into it, Alicia said earlier too, going into parent, I think it's where faith can be very helpful is that confidence with humility, right? I really think when you're able to perceive and understand something bigger than you, that loves you unconditionally, that accepts you as you are, right? Like that can be a very humbling standard to then be able to like,

 

  

Yes.

 

  

Yes.

 

  

Yes, yes, yes.

 

  

in what ways am I modeling that kind of love, right? And so that kind of love when we connected to faith, because Saraand I obviously don't, we don't discuss it a lot on the podcast, but faith is an important piece of our lives. And that to me is always kind of going back to that standard of like, man, somebody loves me completely. All of my ugly parts, and isn't saying like, go clean yourself up and then I'll accept you. Instead it's like, no, I accept you just as you are.

 

  

Amen.

 

  

Yeah.

 

  

I mean, that's such, and so for us, that was very pivotal, especially when the kids were very little and it was like, what does it look like to love this little human? how do we teach them that by modeling that with each other? like, well, there is an example that we through faith believe that somebody has loved us that way. Okay, so that looks like, and when this kid is throwing this tantrum right now and freaking out, how do I model that love right now, right?

 

And so many times I would think, Mike, when I've been throwing a tantrum as an adult, how did I feel like unconditional love interacted with me? Well, it never pushed me away. It never said, I'm sick of that. always like, I feel like that love embraced me. And so I'm like, how could I do that with the kids to where they're really comfortable growing up in a family that believes unconditional love is possible? Yeah.

 

  

Yeah.

 

  

Yes.

 

  

I'm going to close this thing.

 

  

Right. ultimately at the end of the day, we can never give our kids everything they need. We can't because we are going to fail. just know, I know that I have failed because my parents as great as they are, they failed me. Parents always fail. Ultimately, our children's self-worth is going to come from the fact that not just that they're our beloved son or daughter, but they are beloved of God and God will never leave them. Someday,

 

  

Yeah, yep, yep.

 

  

Yeah.

 

Mm-hmm.

 

  

Please God, want to die before my children, right? I want to die way before them. And then I want them to know, even if I'm not even on this earth, that they are loved, that they are loved unconditionally and fully by their heavenly father who will never leave them, never forsake them. That is the greatest gift that we can give our children is a relationship with their heavenly father. And we get to our heavenly father through the merits of Jesus Christ. yeah.

 

  

Well, we want to thank you so much for coming on and sharing this. Can you tell them all the ways they can find you? Where can they find more info if they're interested in hearing what you're doing?

 

  

Yeah, so our podcast is on any platform out there, whether it be Apple or Spotify or wherever, MessyFamilyProject.org has all the information about whether it be our podcasts, our free downloads, whether it be on family culture, family board meeting, the courses, Alicia talked about the women we want to familiarize as well as other courses that we offer out there, as well as our marriage getaway retreats that we do. All of it is available at MessyFamilyProject.org.

 

  

Yeah.

 

  

Good. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for taking the time. I'm sure you've got a lot of kids to get back to.

 

  

Hey, that's right. We'd like to keep it messy. It's on brand for us.

 

  

That's right. That's right, guys. So thank you. And we will be on your podcast soon. So anybody listening, if you want to check out that conversation, go check out messy family. You can hear that interview in the next month or so. So thank you guys. We'll see you.