Episode 131

If Parents Decide They Don’t Want To Spank, Are Time Outs the Next Best Option?

October 28, 2024

In Episode 131, Kyle and Sara, LPC’s, have an in depth discussion about time outs. Lots of parents come to us no longer wanting to spank and they feel like time outs are the only other option available. In this episode we explore the history of time outs and why we thought we were going to use them when we had kids. As a child therapist, Sara was even trained how to teach parents the best ways to do time outs. However, there are many unintended consequences that occur in families when they utilize time out as a discipline strategy. We end the episode with other techniques we use in our home and coach other parents to use, so they can transition away from spankings and time outs.

Episode 131 Transcript:

I think every parent listening to this podcast has heard of the concept of timeouts. Are timeouts good and helpful to our kids or do timeouts have some unintended consequences that maybe you haven't heard of or thought about? In today's podcast, Sara and I really want to dive deep into the topic of timeouts. It's probably one of the most common things we're asked about by parents is about doing, is there's other things besides timeouts?

And today we want to give you some specific things you can be doing that can help you as a family move away from timeouts. If that's what you're wanting to do. We really are excited to share our own personal experience of why we don't use them and how it helps equip our kids to have other skills that are going to help them throughout life. So take a moment, please come with an open mind and listen to this podcast where we really get to flesh out and really dive deep into the topic.

Hello and welcome to the Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. Hi, I'm Sara. And today, Sara, we're gonna talk about a pretty, not controversial topic, but a big topic that one of the most common ones parents ask us about, right? Yes. So we wanna dive into the topic of timeouts, okay? And why we don't do them? Things that you could do other than timeouts, right? Now, right now today, people are listening to this, Sara. This is like the last week in October.

Okay, so I hope everybody is enjoying the fall season. It's our favorite. Yeah, love the fall. I hope the leaves are turning colors wherever you're at. I'm sure. coffee. Yes, and so like our archery outside is about to turn a beautiful red. So I hope you're enjoying the crisp mornings and all that stuff because we really love this. And I know Halloween is happening this week. family time. You come together and enjoy an outdoor fire. Enjoy summer. However you like.

some pumpkin spice, some apple cider, all those kind of fun things. So we love the fall. I just wanted to mention that because it is such an exciting time. We really enjoy the fall. And I hope if you're doing Halloween, I hope it's a safe, fun Halloween for your family. And also before we dive into this topic of timeouts, you're going to hear us give our viewpoint on timeouts and about ways in which we think you could change things and do it differently. And I know there's parents in all types of different situations listening to this podcast.

And one of the things Sara and I love to do is help coach parents to give them skills to change the dynamics in your home, to really do where you and your spouse or co-parent can really create the family you're wanting to create. Yeah, it's a road we know really well from personal experience and just from lots of journeying with other families. And we really love doing that. And so if you're listening to this topic today and you're saying, man,

you know, timeouts haven't set well with me or now that I've heard what you said, I wish we could switch it. and, and, you don't, you don't know how else to actually do that. I mean, we'll give you some steps today, but would love for you to reach out to me. my email is Kyle at art of raising humans.com. And if you have some questions about ways in which you can help you, I love setting up a quick call with you to where we can talk about ways to help your family and your specific situation and also make sure you're a good fit for what we do. So it'd be great to hear from you. So if you're interested,

Reach out. Let us know. We'll set it up. Okay, so without further ado, let's jump into this. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So timeouts it's it's it's not something we've ever done. Right? Yeah. I mean, we definitely set out to do it. Yeah, I would have definitely thought I mean, I actually went to some trainings to learn how to do amazing timeouts. the best of best time most effective. The right ways to do it for your child. I mean, all those things. I went through trainings to learn that. But then

just as I got further into working with families and children and as more research came out because Timeouts have been around for a while and as more research came out then I thought hold on wait a second Actually, I think we've learned there are better ways. Yes Yeah, and I remember even as a kid like when I think of it timeouts I was never put in timeout, know There might be a I mean I'm old enough to where I was put in the corner right told to go stand in the corner So that was kind of a time

You know, but it was never referred to as that, know, growing up in like the 80s. Yeah, to your room for or something that I kind of like a timeout. Yeah. And I think it was like the best thing we knew at the time, Our parents and other caregivers and stuff. It was sort of the emerging, hey, do this kind of thing. And I mean, I'm sure it's been around forever. I don't know. I haven't studied all of it. Yeah. How many years it's been around. Yeah. But the idea of timeouts and then people really tried to fine tune it. Like I said, I went through training.

Yeah. So I think these people who really care about children, parents and experts, they thought, how can we do this really well for our children? Cause that's why we're putting them in timeouts to help them. Yeah. Well, the point was also Sara to kind of in like the seventies and eighties, there was research coming out about spanking and spanking that kind of approach, not being helpful to kids. Now my parents obviously did not know that research because they used it anyway. I know. So was really new. Well, some books like how to talk so kids will listen.

That's a book that was kind of cutting edge and it was talking about moving away from spanking. So timeouts was a method. It was a move in a little further. Yeah, to utilize to move away from that. Right. And so in my mind, even as you and I were about to have kids and I was in the school system as an elementary school counselor, we were talking about possibly not spanking. Right. I mean, you, definitely were more on that direction than me, but then I was thinking, well,

The only other thing you can do if you don't do spanking is timeouts. Yeah. Because that's the only thing I'd ever heard about. I had no other options to fall back on. Right. A child does something. There has to be some way for them to learn from it. Right? So we wanted them to learn. You want them to regulate their emotions.

build skills and go forward, right? there was a punishment element too, if there's gotta be a consequence for what they did. And the consequence is now you're, you have to go there. If you hit your brother or sister, you need to go to timeout, right? Or if you lied to me or you yelled at me, you go to timeout, right? So there was this like mixed message of it is to help you, but it also is to punish you, right? And it's like both. that's really your intent was both.

I want you to learn and you have to realize there's consequences for your Sometimes it would be you're just dysregulated and out of control. You need a timeout to go get control of yourself. So there's all these types of reasons why. And then partly I would love for our listeners to know, just not gonna go long history of it, but a big part of the history of timeouts haven't necessarily been around forever. Timeouts were something that was birthed out of the behaviorism techniques that were being taught to counselors and mental health experts. And what behaviorism is, is just,

you're putting something, some kind of stimulus. Like for instance, when they did it with mice or animals, it was basically like, let's take something away from that person or isolate that thing until they act the way you want. And then they're now able to get that thing. So it could be cheese, could be whatever that thing's gonna be. And so through the research of doing this with animals, they thought, hey, this could work with kids as well. Where if we just move them away from the thing they want, which is you, which is the family, which is the parent, or that

thing that they're trying to get. If we just move them away from that, isolate them from that or extinguish their ability to get it, then that will cause them to act the way you want. They'll be motivated in order to keep that thing. So that is the history of it is it is a way to control behavior through an external method. And so that's where it got really popular all throughout kind of the 60s, 70s kind of started more growing in that.

in kind of the mental health circles in the counseling field where people like you, Sara, when you're going through training or other counselors still today, still today, lots of counselors, if you've, you've taken your kid to a therapy and your kid is young, you're probably going to run into a lot of counselors who will teach you how to do time. Yeah. we, I, I wanted to just dedicate a whole podcast, Sara, to this because there are so many questions that pop up. I know throughout the history of doing this podcast, we have definitely addressed timeouts, but not given it just an exclusive, you know,

podcast. A a real big breakdown of our own journey with it, what we've learned. and we want to share all that stuff so people can make informed decisions for their family. When did you decide you weren't going to do timeouts? Like I know you're teaching all these families how to not spank, but then you're like, I've got this great training from these experts, but how to do really awesome timeouts. why did you decide not to do it? because as I got more into the research, the bigger thing for me was working with families who

had been through something really, really hard and it could be a mix of things. Some of them have lost a caregiver. Some of them had been abused in some way. So, kicked out of daycares, you know, schools, things like that. So, but as I got into it, was like, I was thinking, okay, we need to build that these kids have resiliency, right? Cause they've been knocked down and I want them to feel like they can get back up. And as we got into more of learning that they.

needed to be in relationship with a caregiver. They needed to be attached and have good attachment. And as I learned more about those things, it just was natural to learn that if I want healthy humans and I want them, I want them to feel good about themselves. I want them to feel capable of moving forward in this world. I want them to heal from whatever it might be. I want them to feel secure in relationships so they can grow up to have more relationships. Because I was dealing with also with a lot of parents who didn't know how to have healthy relationships and

to some degree, I think we all are there, right? We all have our own wounds and we're having to work through that. And I was working with these little humans who are going to grow up to be those big humans and really trying to figure that out. And I realized as I just was learning more about attachment, more about the brain, all that brain science was starting to just, we could see and map the brain in ways we've never been able to. So the research was just really, it was really strong. We were learning that isolation does not help the human brain.

We are made for connection. We are made for attachment. We're made for being with people and all that external stuff doesn't move us forward into that world of where we're trying to go, where we're trying to get our children. So was sort of like, I didn't learn. Someone said, don't do that. It was more of, hey, if you want this, that's just not going to work out. so was more of, I just had to leave it behind because it wasn't going to get the goals. It wasn't going to help me help these families get to where they want to go. So by the time we had kids, I thought,

those early years, want her to feel, we had a daughter first, I want her to feel securely attached to us. I want her to feel capable and healthy. wanted to help build her healthy brain. And so I just knew those things weren't gonna do it. So was more of just, can't do that because it's not gonna get me where I It's not gonna, yeah. So that means isn't gonna reach the end you wanted. I'm thinking, Sara, mine was similar to that, but mine was twofold. One was the experience. There was one time,

where I didn't call the time out. It really was a time out, but I kind of like banished Abby to her room because I was tired of how she was acting. So I was like, Abby, listen, you need to just go calm down, go to your room. And I definitely wasn't like saying it in a kind way. definitely, it was more out of my need to get away from her. I was getting upset. I was getting mad. I was trying to be better at not yelling. And so was go to your room. And her feedback to you after that was that the message she got, which almost every kid I talked to about this,

gives a similar type message is that dad wants me to act good, you know, or dad wants me to be a certain way for him to like me and to love me and to be around me, right? So she was like, I got to act better. I got to act good. So dad will, will want me around, you know? And when she said that I was like, well, that's not what I was saying. But inside my brain, I'm thinking that's exactly what I was saying was I'm so sick of this version of you go somewhere else and get your crap together.

and then come back so I can freaking enjoy you. know? That brings up a, that does, yes. That's the other real big piece of it was, I was working with very dysregulated kids. So kids in trauma are kids who have had these big things happen. You know, they really struggle with what they're feeling, what to do with those feelings. That's why they're getting kicked out of daycare at two years old, you know? So because they've got these really big feelings and they're just a mess with it all.

And it's not their fault. So I was like, okay, if I'm going to teach them regulation, you know what? that's going to be a problem with timeouts. So, well, cause this is not, it's not doing the co-regulating piece that you'd want. But then I'd say the second thing is along with the co-regulation was like you said, the knowledge of the brain, but even more for me, Sara is the knowledge and the understanding. knew this to be true, but I hadn't until I heard it from certain experts, I couldn't really, is that all behavior is just taught.

It's modeled, it's all skill. like in this moment, I'm thinking, if I, when I get dysregulated, which I'm sure every listener who's listening to podcasts, you've had times where you've gotten dysregulated with your spouse or even at work with coworkers or even with a boss. I'm just thinking like, would that help me if I got upset at my boss and my boss just put me in time out? Would it help me in our marriage? If when I acted in a way you didn't like, you told me to go to time out. You know, I'm thinking,

No, the things I've been most helped is when I am upset and I am dysregulated and then you and I have been able to help each other to say, let's come on, let's lower our voices down or let's take a minute, let's just pause for a moment. Take a deep breath. I mean, even if you step away for a minute, take a deep breath, go stand outside in the trees or something, you might need that, but it's the coming back together that really provides the healing and the skills.

Not the fact that you stood outside for a But also even me choosing to say, need a minute. That's different than you telling me to go away and go take a minute, right? That feels completely different. And most people listening this, if another adult did that to you, you would not like that. You would feel shamed by that. You'd feel rejected by it. So as I'm thinking of behavior is taught, I was like, how is Abby gonna learn that in her room by herself? By who's teaching her?

Right. And that was a light bulb moment for me. I like, wait a second. Maybe, maybe I'm wanting her to learn it. Cause in this moment, I don't have it. Like in this moment, I'm unable to calm down and I'm thinking, I need you to get away from me so I can calm down. And then I'm just hoping and believing that while I'm calming down, she is too, you know, but I'm like, but wait, I have been taught it. I have a master's degree in counseling. Like she doesn't, she's never been taught this. So like how, why wouldn't I be the one to go be with her?

to teach you this. and, and, mean, just to heap it on ourselves as parents, you know, our brain is so much more developed than their brain. So even just the expectation, I remember when I was working with really little kids, having the moment of thinking, you know what, this kid's been on this earth for three years or six years or whatever it is, like literally just walking the planet for a handful of years. don't care if it's 12 years and then here I've been here for whatever a few decades, you know,

And, I'm kind of expecting them to be at my level, you know, and it just sort of, if you, helped me that reframe helped me to, or just to be aware of how long they've been around. And so I'm thinking, man, they're learning to walk and E and the alphabet and they're having to learn all these things and emotional regulation. And so the expectation, you know, of course I don't expect them to read very well or I don't expect them to.

know how to drive a car or whatever and throw out the Well, like that, I don't tell them to go read by themselves. I don't tell them to go tie their shoes on their own. I teach them that stuff. Yeah. So how much more this thing, which is really hard, I as an adult know what it's like to get triggered and to be upset about something and how much, I mean, that can sit with you for hours, even sometimes days. You can think back to this upsetting moment. Maybe that happened a few years ago. We can all just do that probably pretty easily.

and you can feel all those feels still, right? And so how much more will that be messy for my kid? But there's little human, it's gonna be really messy and they need us, because you don't sit there and build a skill. Like I want you to learn how to drive a car, go sit there until you've figured it out. You know? And so I wanted to dive in Sara to some of the unattended consequences that happen when you send your kid to time.

Okay, so we definitely, kind of discovered why people do it or covered that, why people do it, the intent behind it, believe it is to help the kid. It is sometimes even to help yourself and none of that's wrong or bad. But I want to, here's the unintended consequences that a lot of parents, even clinicians who encourage timeouts don't really see or understand is that when the kid is very little, one of the main skills you're trying to help the kid learn that's going to be so crucial to their success when they grow up.

is the ability to have self-control, the ability to have this intrinsic way of regulating their emotions and not letting them overtake them and boss them around, right? And so every time we do a technique like timeout, even though the quote unquote may work, meaning that it extinguishes the behavior for that moment or somehow makes that conflict disappear for that little bit of time, it's actually teaching them external control, not intrinsic internal control.

And they're gonna continue requiring that more and more from the parents, the more it's done. They'll think when I'm out of control, mom or dad need to send me away to go do a timeout. And now that's gonna make me control it. So without them sending me away, I will never have any motivation to want to control this. But now that I'm sent away, I'm gonna wanna come back and be with them and they know that. And so that's gonna be, I'm gonna need them to do that to me.

instead of teaching the kid how to help themselves, which is the longer, more sustainable skill you want them to Yeah. Yeah. And anything that's that's external just isn't learned as well. So even it's the things that come from inside of us, those are the things we remember better. Those are the things we can repeat and do again. anything on the outside, your, your brain, it's, it's just like, it's just fumbling through it. It's not

It's not owning it and it's not, it's harder for your brain to repeat that because it hasn't learned the same way as when it comes from inside of you. Yeah. Yeah. And that, isolation just, I mean, we would love to think we wish they were sitting there contemplating the big things of life, but they're in their brainstem or they're in their limbic system and they have these really big feelings and it doesn't really matter whether we agree with the big feelings or, or understand the big feelings, they're there.

And your kid is in that really rough spot and sitting there just doesn't build up what to do now. It doesn't heal their emotions because they don't know how to heal their emotions. So their emotions aren't getting healed. They're not sitting there contemplating those things of what to do next time because they don't even know then the other things to exist to do. What else is there besides just being upset? Yeah. And you're moving into that second one Sara that we've heard from a lot of kids and we've been helping kids for quite some time.

And what we hear from kids, and this is stuff they tell us, and then it plays out through what we can watch, observe and read, is that there's really only two things kids are doing. like, know parents, I know if I was to send our kid away and do a timeout, I would hope that they're like, how could I have done that better? I'm going to calm myself down. And then I'm going to think about what I did. And then I'm going to go back, fix it and do it better next time. But that's actually not what's happening in the kid's head. The kid is

almost 100 % of the time thinking one of two things. I'm mad at you for doing that to me, or I'm mad at myself for continuing to do that and make that mistake. Why do I keep doing that? To me, that's more often the thing. It's more often the focus. We talk about how everyone knows kids are pretty self-focused because they're little and they need to be to survive. But so they think a lot about why did I cause mom to get so mad at me or why did I do that to dad or why do I keep hitting my brother? I'm such an idiot.

And so a lot of times when kids get brought for therapy, know, and they're having a lot of negative self-talk, a lot of that negative self-talk happened in these moments where they're off in their room just beating themselves up for making the same stupid mistakes over and over again and causing mom and dad to get so mad. So that to me is a huge unintended consequence. And I know no parent listening to this wants that to happen, but that is where a lot of that negative talk starts to occur.

Cause it, cause they don't know what else to put in that spot and children, especially the younger they are, this shifts as they get older and older, but the younger they are, the more, it's never the parents fault. It's always going to be them. They're always going to blame even for things that have nothing to do with them. a parents divorcing or something. Kids are, there's all kinds of things kids will blame themselves for. And so those timeouts are spaces where they just kind of swim in that they're just kind of swimming in the, what an awful kid I must be.

and here I am sitting and I'm unloved or unwanted and I must be separated. And they're just sitting in that swimming in that. And we know from that, that we love our kids and we wanna draw them close and we want them to feel connected to us. And all that does is drive them away from us, not bring them closer to us. Well, Sara, the brain research backs it up. Like whenever a kid is acting out, throwing a tantrum or just has this big emotion.

we know the kid is not in the prefrontal cortex where all of that good thinking is happening. Like in the prefrontal cortex, once they're there, they can be thinking like, why did I use that method? Maybe next time instead of hitting my brother, I'll just ask for that thing. Or maybe, maybe I did get really upset and it's not as big a deal as I thought, right? Those thoughts can happen in the prefrontal cortex, but that's not where the kid is when you put the kid in timeout. The kid is in the limbic system or in the brainstem. And real quick, the limbic system is all those big feelings you have. The brainstem is...

I'm gonna fight, so that's hitting someone, kicking, or I'm gonna run away, we've had, sometimes you see, most people don't, this doesn't really hit your radar, but it's maybe a kid who just like curls up in a little ball and freezes. You see those kinds of behaviors in that brainstem. And that's either one, limbic scissor brainstem, is just a big overwhelm. Their brain is being washed and all these feelings and chemicals, neurotransmitter, all this stuff going on.

that they literally don't know what to do with their brain is hijacked. And I think that word is really fitting for what they're experiencing in that moment. And they don't know how to get out of being hijacked. Yeah. Yeah. And so in that a lot of even like the science that came from time out to way back when they didn't have all this brain research, but now we know that is where the kid is at. The kid is in this emotional center of their brain where their thoughts aren't about how to do it better.

it's actually either being upset at the person who just sent them there and saying, you're such a jerk. They always blame me. They love my brother more than me and all those kinds of thoughts, or I'm such an idiot. Why does that's what's going on in that part of the brain? that's really all they're capable of thinking in those moments until their brain calms down, relaxes, feels safe and loved. And they return to the prefrontal cortex. Their brain can't think anything else because it's not in the space to think that. So where we wish they were thinking

of alternate ways to deal with these situations or we want them to process and heal from the big upset feelings they're having. We don't want them to feel so angry. One of the help them calm their brain just isn't even capable of that. It's none of that wiring is there in that part of the brain. So if they're in that part of the brain, those capacities and abilities aren't there. Well, and you hit upon just a real quick part of that is what we know from brain science too, is how do I get out of that emotional part of my brain is knowing that someone is loved and connected to me.

and someone cares about what I'm feeling too, right? And what's happening a lot of time is the parent is in the limbic system, the kid is in the limbic system, and we're both saying, I want you to change so I can feel better. And the kid is saying the same thing. I want you to change so I can feel better, right? And so we're both- Everyone wants to feel better and we're all just struggling because we're in the wrong part of our brain. We're just sitting there struggling. How do we feel better?

And you're just grasping for someone to help. And it leads to this power struggle a lot of times. Right. And then, then the last thing I was saying, last unattended consequences, then we'll dive into other things you can do. We're going to give you a lot of options, but is the kid in that moment learns to stuff their feelings. You know, they, they learn to just like, okay, what, what is it mom and dad want me to feel to then come back and be reinserted into the family? What is going to be acceptable? How do I, how can I fake this or push this down enough?

to where I no longer feel mad or no longer feel sad or no longer feel disappointed. They obviously don't want to see that. And the unintended consequence of that, Sara, is the kid is like, when I have these big feelings, mom and dad don't want me to show those to them. And then what I find that leads to is kids who are teenagers who are now parents are getting mad because the teenagers don't share any of their feelings with them, right? The teacher's like, you don't want to hear these, right? They've gotten this message of like, you don't want to see my big anger or my big disappointment or my big frustration.

That was not something you wanted. Or by the time they're teenagers, it's exploding all out because they never learned how to deal with it and they can't stuff it forever. Yeah. So you're going to have these kids who either they're the ones who keep running out of time out and it just escalates. They're hitting you. They're kicking you now. They're throwing things. So those are the kids who are like, you're going to try to put me in time out. And they're so dysregulated. They act out against, they act bigger than you have the other kid who's like, okay, I got it.

stick this fee. I have this really big feeling and I'm not going to be loved. I'm not safe with these big feelings. You're worried about these big feelings. You can't handle them either. You know, you can't handle my big feels. I can't handle my big feels. So I just need to stick them down in this dark hole. And we think when the kid comes out and they're all calm, we're like, good, it worked. They're all better. But those feelings were never actually processed. They weren't healed. They weren't,

actually managed, they were just stuffed. And those kids grow up, like you were saying, as a teenager, that little corner gets really full of these big feelings that were never dealt with. And they will either explode or you have, I mean, worse, you have kids who turn to substances or other things to him because they're like, I never learned what to do with my big dark corner of feelings. So now this is the best I can do because they didn't learn healthy things and they learned

I am going to be isolated. I'm going to be unloved. I don't want me. They don't want me. No one can handle me. Yeah. And I can't handle me. Yes. Yeah. And you, that sounds so sad. can't handle me either. So I need something else to handle me. Whether it's just, yeah. And I just invite you as a parent to think back if you were put in timeouts or you were ever sent away.

And it's not to, we understand, you know, best intentions of all the caregivers, right? Cause I even learned and you know, I think back to what I taught parents and everything. So it's not to put shame on us. It's not, it's more to, we, we learned something new, but think back to your childhood and maybe you're like, well, I mean, I hit my brother, so I deserve to go in timeout, but just think back to your internal experience. What was going through you?

You know, cause those are also important things that we need to revisit and heal. even thinking of when I was put in the corner. mean, I remember one specific instance where I didn't want to watch a movie my family was watching and my dad put me in the corner and told me to stand. I stood in the corner for the entire two hours. It was basically like a timeout for two hours and the whole time.

I actually was trying to pass out. kept like locking my knees and I was hoping to pass out. So I'd fall over and hit my head on something and it caused them to feel bad for putting me in time. That's what I was doing the whole two hours and I could not wait till that movie was over. And I didn't learn anything other than how to get really, really mad at my parents. So think through that. Think what was going through my mind. I try to remember any messages you can sometimes we just have forgotten that stuff, but

try to revisit those moments, what was actually going through your head? What was your brain going over and over and over again? Were you hate, know, just anger at your parents, anger at yourself. And I think the biggest thing is we all, our big takeaway is, in order to be loved, in order to be wanted, in order to be relationship with people, this is what I've got to fit into this thing. And anytime I'm outside of that, I am unwanted, unloved, and I need to go away and be by myself. And so what happens when we grow up?

and we're trying to have relationship with people. What's the difference between someone who does reject you every time you don't fit into what they want versus the person, hopefully you have someone in your life who's like, wow, even when you're messy, I love you. I can hold that with you. I can walk that with you. I mean, just think about the difference and how that feels. Well, let's use that. I love that they shift into here are other things you could do besides timeout. First thing I think the most important step is that shift in mindset.

Okay. Then when I see the kid doing the behavior I don't like or don't prefer, you know, isn't going to help them. Wow. That's not to help you in line. Then at that moment, two things I'd love for the listeners. Just first pause a moment and understand that is a cry for help. The kid needs your help. Okay. And what is the kid needing help with? Well, that's number two. All behavior are just skills. So this behavior

that you don't like or don't think is going to be helpful, whatever you don't want in this kid's life, because it's not going to benefit them. That is a skill they are using and you just need to give them a different skill. Right. And then three, I guess there's a third piece to that is they need your help to regulate their emotions. So in this moment, they are not in the prefrontal cortex. They are not in a space in that moment to, learn and grow and change.

They're not going to be there. Think of like the little baby. couldn't eat the baby couldn't even eat or sleep or use the restroom until the baby was helped regulate. You had to regulate the baby. Then the baby could eat. But until the baby was regulated, the baby's just thinking about survival and just thinking about these needs I need. But you would have to calmly hold the baby and then give the baby the thing that's helpful to them. Right? And so same with the kid, right? With the kid, I'm looking at like, the kid is just saying, I need your help.

I'm not trying to upset you. I'm not trying to turn you against me. I'm just asking you help me learn the skill to regulate my big feelings. And they don't have the words for that, you know? They can't come, Hey, mom and dad, I'm feeling very dysregulated right now. My brother just knocked over my whatever and it broke. And, so could really, I'd really appreciate your help. Cause I'm having some really big feelings. No, it looks like I hit my brother or I yell at him or I go break something of his.

or fit in whatever behavior you know isn't helpful to them in that moment, that's the thing they're doing. So it's our job as parents, knowing they're not able to come to us and say, I'm feeling some big things here, can you help me? It's gonna come out and their behavior is that communication. So when they're doing something that you, it irritating all the things you just said, isn't helpful to them, translate that into, I need help right now, can you help me right now? I don't know how to do this.

And literally that part of their brain isn't developed. And the only way it gets developed is by doing it over and over and over, but they need someone who knows how to do it. And that's us. Can do it what you can do it for yourself and then help them do it, right? And sometimes that's hard. I'm not saying this is easy. Yeah, it's gonna be the hardest thing you probably ever Yeah, but we've gotta be there because sometimes their big emotions are pulling up stuff from our own childhood. They're triggering us. We are triggered in that moment. We're feeling dysregulated and it's really rough.

So it definitely is one of those situations that starts with us. We've got to regulate, but our child is asking us to help them. Please build this part of my brain. It's not working and I really need help. Yeah. So the first one, the first one do you recommend quite a bit to parents instead of doing a timeout is do a time in. mean, really this is like your go-to. Yeah. Yeah. He's like, what do I do? This is it. Yeah. I do a time in what's a time in Sara. would you describe it? in is the opposite. I mean, it's just what it sounds like. Instead of pushing them away, I bring them close.

And I think the first thing is like, no, that's rewarding their behavior. But all studies, mean, man, it's everywhere you can find this is not rewarding their behavior. This is not letting them off the hook. It actually is the only place that they can learn accountability and learn their own awareness. remember, that part of the brain, they need to know, am I connected? Am I loved? Right? And so I'm acting like this because I don't feel connected. So you come and give that connection. Yes. You're like, hey, come here. I get it. You're big messy. There's all these big fields.

and you're gonna tell them you're safe because if they're in the brainstem, they don't know that they're feeling like even if it's their tower was knocked over, that's not safe to them, right? So you gotta tell them that and you've gotta most of all say you are loved. They have to know in spite of all of this, they are loved because once you calm down those systems, then you can start building the part of the brain and the skills you want to.

So you bring them close, you connect to them. And sometimes a lot of times that may be enough, just bringing them close to connect them. But understand the goal here and connecting and doing a time in, instead of saying go to your room, it's like, hey, come here, come here, let me hold you. Let me come here and connect with you. It's not to make those feelings just go away. It's not to somehow say, hey, it's all right what you did, it's all right. We're not saying it's not about placating, it's not about dismissing, it's not about avoiding. It's actually to go right into the feeling, to say, hey,

you look so mad right now or you look so dismal. Let me help you with that. Right. And this is if you started early, a lot of parents say, when we suggest this, they'll say the kid doesn't want to draw near. And if you start early, the kid gets into this habit of like, when I'm at my worst, I know mom and dad are the people to go to because they'll help me. So I would encourage you the sooner you start this the better. But there are some kids

who are resistant and that's okay, I get that. So a time in may not be the kid being right with you, but it may be you being in close proximity to the kid. So to say, hey, here's what I'm gonna do with you. I'm gonna take some deep breaths right now. If you wanna do them with me, do them with me. Or I'm gonna go right now to my room and I'm gonna go back there to calm myself down. And if you wanna do that with me, I'd love for you to do that with me, right? So it might look like you inviting the kid to go do that skill with you. Yeah, yeah, because the whole message is,

you have really big feelings and I believe you. Yes. I get that this was upsetting. Whatever put in whatever feeling you want and you're wanting them. They're not really aware. They don't have words for all of this. Right? So you want to lend them those words and say, wow, that was really frustrating or you know, and you want them to know that you can actually connect with them on that feeling because they're feeling either shame, rejection, whatever.

And so it's hard for them to open up. So you're trying to let them know that you're a safe person, that you can handle their really big feelings, that you love them and their big feelings, and that you can help them in their big feelings, that they're not stuck there because it's overwhelming. And if they're in that overwhelm, they have a hard time connecting. So you have to realize there's some work there for them to feel like you're a safe person to come to with all of that. Because they're going to be met with criticism, denial, dismissing.

that doesn't feel safe to bring my big feelings. mean, that's not the friend you call up the friend that's going to criticize me and judge me and yell at me. And that's not the person I'm going to call if I'm really upset. Sara, when you're saying that I'm thinking like, isn't this what you want with your teenagers? You want them to be able come to you, right? This is the hope all the listeners hear that this is when that starts. If you want teenagers who are coming to you when they're having problems with their peers,

or having problems at school or having problems in their personal life or emotional life or whatever, you want you to be that go-to person. And if we're not that when they're young, we're actually wiring their brain to not believe we're that person, right? The peer is. Yeah, if you have the teenager or the older kid, you can still change that. But obviously the earlier you get started on this, it really helps. So it would be nice to what we did early on with the kids. We had a place in the house, right? Like a place that was the kids knew that's the place we can go.

when we're getting dysregulated, right? I'm gonna go to that place. It was like a bean bag chair, it like a stuffy place. Dr. Becky Bailey calls it a safe place, but you can call it whatever you want. But it's a place we go there and there's things there, maybe in a basket, that can help them regulate. sometimes it's like a squishy ball, maybe it's a dry erase board, maybe it's a favorite book they like to read with you. All types of little things that you can do to where that becomes the norm. Like I hope you hear, the vision is...

that the kid is getting dysregulated and we go, the problem isn't the behavior. The problem is the feeling is getting too big. The feeling is taking them over. Let's help regulate that feeling. And we'll even include this in the show notes. There's a awesome tool called the self-control board that Dr. Becky Bailey uses. And the self-control board walks you through these steps of first, the kid identifies what they feel. Then the kid identifies what they're going to do to calm that feeling down. And you're doing that with the kid.

But then the last part is, and this the part you really are wanting to happen is, let's reflect upon what just happened, right? And now the kid and you aren't in a place of lecturing or shaming. We're in a place of like, let's learn and grow from this. And now the kid, many times for us, is coming up with a better way to do it on their own. And that's what you're wanting that's a more sustainable tool and skill for them to have as they grow into adulthood. And that's the really cool part, because we're not actually letting them off the hook.

And we're actually building the skill of awareness because we need them to be aware of actually, cause a lot of us, just like a big mess with our anger or whatever. And it's, and we need to actually be able to build the skill of pausing for a second and going, what am I feeling? Why am I feeling that? It's that insight. It's that self-awareness you want to build. You want to build inside of them so they can pause and take a take inventory. What's going on here? And then what do I do about it? Because I don't want to stuff that feeling and I don't want to explode with that. So it's.

So it's how can I actually heal this emotion? How can I heal this thing in me and actually do it in a healthy way that helps me and the people around me? So we get those things done and we move into now what skill did I what skill did I need to teach my child? What do they need in this moment? You know, it's like if I if someone comes along and takes my favorite toy, what do I do? What are my options?

And, but they can't learn any of that. They can't learn any of those things if they're still here and all the big mess of emotion. Yeah. Yeah. So that's where you're not letting them off the hook. You're actually getting them to a place where they can learn because then they're more likely to repeat that healthy thing or that helpful thing in the future. Yeah. So, so I hope that's giving all the listeners a vision of what we're talking about, that there is another path. Maybe you've never heard about this path. Maybe it's the first time you've ever discovered this.

Maybe you've, you've known there's something else, but you never was really talked about in more depth, right? So I hope today, this message isn't about we, we think whatever you're doing is wrong. If you're doing timeouts or bad, we just really wanted to give you what we had given to us, which was the knowledge and the insight that there is another path where you, don't actually not only never needed to do spanking, but don't ever need to do timeouts and that there are other ways to do it that actually leads you.

to give the skills to your kid that you actually want them to have. And so if you've heard this today, and like I said at the beginning, if you're saying, man, I really want that for my family, I really want to get it, there's something in me. I know we've heard from people say, we've been doing it, but I kind of feel like there's- Or it's not working. Yeah, it's not working. like of works and kind of doesn't work. It's kind of hit or miss. And so we would love to help you. So once again, email me at kyle at artofraisinghumans.com and say, I'm interested in knowing more and we can connect with you and see.

Definitely we can help your family. Just see if you're a good fit for what we do. We'd love to meet you. So take a moment if you haven't already to pause to, to, you know, rate this podcast, to leave your comments. Maybe you're a parent who left timeouts a long time ago and you're like, we did that. It was great. Whatever. We'd love to hear those comments. And if you haven't hit it already, last week we had a great podcast with Dr. Laura Markham. It was awesome. And we are excited about many more really good interviews coming in the future. Some really like,

mentors of ours that we are so excited to get on here to let you guys hear because we want to give this knowledge only that we have, but that they have back to you. encourage you to jump into those, make sure you're sharing the podcast, let other families know about what we're doing and have an awesome time enjoying the fall. Okay. Thank you for listening.