Episode 155

Kyle And Sara Wester (0:1.082)
Hello and welcome to the Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. Hi there, I'm Sarah. And Sarah, know, something we get asked about more and more all the time from families is about the subject of autism. Yes. You know, and about neurodivergence and the way in which just we're noticing more and more science coming out about kids' brains and how they just work differently, you know? And I think all of us kind of can sense that not everybody's the same. Everybody's got little things that are different, but more and more we're actually able to like understand it better.
kind of diving deeper. And I know what you and I are really passionate about is understanding the brain, because if we understand the brain, we can better understand our kids better understand ourselves, right? So we thought let's bring on some, you know, pediatric neuropsychologists, right, to come on and talk about the brain. without further ado, I want to welcome Dr. Fredrickson, Dr. Fredrickson and Dr. Rothman to the show and just thank you for coming on.

Yael Rothman (0:56.280)
Thank you for having us.

Katia Fredriksen (0:56.344)
Thank you for having us.

Kyle And Sara Wester (0:57.962)
Would you mind taking a moment and just introducing yourself to the listeners?

Yael Rothman (1:3.214)
I can start off I am the L Rothman. Thank you for having us again. I were both pediatric neuropsychologists. I started my journey at the Children's National Medical Center in Washington DC where I stayed on as faculty and then moved to private practice where I met Dr. Fredrickson and in the outskirts outside of DC and now I am in New York at my own private practice.
Just for all the listeners out there, pediatric neuropsychologist is a professional who we have training in clinical psychology and then do specialized training in brain behavior relationships, where we do assessments of children with a variety of medical and developmental conditions, learning challenges, social cognition, differences, emotional and academic differences.
And then we come up with a plan of action, diagnostic clarification, a plan of action and support families to find interventions. Yeah, definitely. We love what we do and we happy to talk about it anytime. But Dr. Fredrickson, you wanna talk about your background as well?

Kyle And Sara Wester (2:13.008)
That's awesome.

Katia Fredriksen (2:21.540)
Well, I don't know. think you hit the nail on the head there. That was very efficient. I don't think I need to reinvent the wheel. Yeah, we met at working together in Silver Spring, Maryland and I'm still there and and Yael has has winged off to New York, which I'm not super happy about, but you know, in this day and age, it's not hard to stay in touch, right?

Kyle And Sara Wester (2:38.553)
Yes.

Yael Rothman (2:42.199)
Yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (2:42.264)
Yes. Yes. Well, well, and you guys were on with us last year to talk about your book at that time, which was called different thinkers, ADHD. And now you've come out with a book this year called different thinkers, autism. And for the audience on YouTube, we're showing you, here's the book. We've got the book. We've read the book. It's a book specifically for, um, written for kids from six to 12 years of age. But, um, but
I want to go back to this passion you guys have about understanding the brain because I know for Sarah and I it was I mean that was a big shift when we stopped looking at behavior from the outward in but started to try to understand it from the inward out that that really helped me quite a bit as a parent to instead of being more judgmental and more critical of the behavior I was seeing that maybe I didn't like or was upset about understanding the brain helped me better be more curious
and more compassionate because I think all of us, all the listeners can relate to those times where you weren't feeling well and like people just didn't care. They just were like upset with you because you weren't acting good and they got mad at you. And so I think there's a lot of awareness that still needs to be raised to help people to move from that outward in model to more of the inward out. But I'd love to hear from you. Why did you guys want to do this book on autism? What was it that you're passionate about helping parents?

Katia Fredriksen (4:5.602)
Well, to your point though, just quickly, I really like that way of thinking about it, the inward out. Because obviously what's obvious to us as observers, we see what's on the outside. And it can be so difficult to know what's going on internally. And of course, there can be multiple moving parts. So it can be hard to sort through. We talk all the time.
remember ourselves in the course of parenting our own children all the time, that whole idea of distinguishing between what someone cannot do and what they're choosing not to do, right? Because there are always going to be times when kids, you know, it's just part of human nature. There are going to be times when people choose not to do the things they're supposed to do. But in general, if you're seeing persistent difficulty, right, it tends to be more of an ability thing versus a purposeful intentional. Yeah. And so that's

Kyle And Sara Wester (4:36.148)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (4:44.942)
Yes, yes, yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (4:51.589)
Yeah.

Katia Fredriksen (4:54.360)
what drove us really into the work that we do. And as you recalled, our first book was ADHD. And we moved on to autism because that's another group of people who we work with very frequently. And we wanted to just provide that same sort of input to that population.

Yael Rothman (5:15.350)
I think part of our job is we give a lot of parent information. We talk to parents and educators and other clinicians, but really, again, our passion is for children and adolescents to get to learn about how they process information and help them become their own best self advocates. That is really the goal.
is if everyone around you knows information that you are not being given, it's not going to be helpful for the kid. And I know we talked about this last time, too. It's children are, we don't give them enough credit. They know something is going on. They know something is different. And the human condition is when we don't have the words for what's going on, we immediately go negative. And instead of

Kyle And Sara Wester (5:56.912)
Mmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (6:3.962)
Yeah.

Yael Rothman (6:9.940)
having kids do that, we can give them the proper terminology, supports, you are so awesome at this, but this is a little harder for you, and here's how to make it easier. Amazing. That's what we want. That's our goal is for the kids to get to have this knowledge.

Kyle And Sara Wester (6:28.890)
Well, and I hope every listener heard what you said there that I thought was really powerful was when we don't have the words and what I take that as when we don't understand, when we can't describe or comprehend what's happening, we tend to get afraid and then we move towards the critical. We move towards the negative. And I think that's even true for kids when kids are doing things and they don't know why.
they're doing that that way or why they're not fitting in in the way in which they should, they move towards the critical too, because they go, what is wrong with me? Why am I not able to do this? And it just, it's this whole dance that gets caught up in these families that Sarah and I've seen all too often. I'm sure you have as well is where we start to get confused. We can't understand. So then we start to get afraid and then it becomes a whole kind of shame kind of negative cycle, you know? And, and, and so
Books like what you're saying and not only helping the parent understand, but also assisting the kid to have that understanding is so powerful because then it can dispel that shame and that stigma that somehow you're broken and there's something wrong with you.

Katia Fredriksen (7:34.294)
Right, you so often hear that negative narrative, and I'm sure you do in the course of your work too, not just that people direct toward others, but the people direct toward themselves, you know, because kids, as you always saying, are so much more perceptive than we sometimes realize, and they know something's not going right. And the amount of times we hear kids say, I'm just stupid or nobody likes me. And these awful sort of really harsh self assessments when there is
A reason for why things have been harder and if we can help them understand that reason and guess what? are plenty of other kids who deal with this too and here are strategies that have been helpful for them. Maybe we can try those things with you kind of thing. I think it's such an empowering perspective.

Yael Rothman (8:11.950)
And another reason we wanted to write the book was for the families and the parents and also providers and educators about maybe dispelling some misconceptions and helping raise awareness and take away stigma surrounding a diagnosis or about neurodivergence in general.

Katia Fredriksen (8:34.072)
do appreciate, I know we keep talking and not giving you a chance to ask a question, but I do appreciate how there's more openness about that these days, right? Yeah, I went on Monday, I went to a local elementary school to do readings from pre-K to third grade from our ADHD book. And I would start by each group, I would start by saying, so have you heard this word? they're because like, have ADHD, I have ADHD, we all have ADHD in my family. And I was like, gosh, when I was a kid, I cannot imagine people being so just open and comfortable and.

Yael Rothman (8:41.815)
Yep.

Katia Fredriksen (9:3.940)
So I do appreciate that evolution.

Kyle And Sara Wester (9:7.512)
Yeah. I, but I, um, I think for so many years there's, there's this tug in parents. Am I going to make it worse if we actually say this out loud? Is it going to make things worse? I don't want my child to then they somehow feel like your child already feels different than, Oh, but I don't want them to feel even more different or more broken or let it be an excuse or there's so much fear around that. And I appreciate the language you use in this.
and how it, I think it just shifts some of that, you know, oh, this is how your brain works. And I'm kind of wondering, it sounds like you're an advocate for informing children and helping families understand what's going on and how to navigate these differences. What do you see on the other side of being nervous to share that and then, but then you have the sit down, you do talk to your child.
And down the road, what do you see that does for children, for families who do that? Yeah, that's great.

Yael Rothman (10:11.094)
One of our most common topics is to combat this worry. I think parents often bring that to us. Oh, you want to tell my child, but then they'll feel more negative than they'll use it as a crutch I've heard before, or they'll have a bad experience, feel ostracized. And it is almost always the opposite experience that a child feels seen and heard and they, as they get older,
might identify their tribe, like maybe it's other autistic individuals that I connect with. It's, I understand how to speak up when I need support. Hey, I do best when I sit in the front of the class, or I'm going to have to keep these earbuds in to drown out some sound or whatever it might be to learn to advocate for that. And that's what you want.
for these people, for these children to grow up to be the most independent and successful individuals is that they can use their voice to ask for what they need. And we have this talk a lot.
And we talked to parents about getting comfortable with this information before you ever start talking to your child. So you can come in already, like I'm in a great place. I understand. I know what I'm talking about before I give this information. So you're not coming in with any bias and yourself. Katya, would you like to add to that a little?

Katia Fredriksen (11:38.868)
No, just going to add we we coach parents on this a lot and then also sometimes family. So we work with certainly with older kids, but even also with younger kids will request that we give direct feedback to the child and or teenager, which can include, you know, unveiling a new diagnosis. And yeah, I mean, we very often I tend to approach it as a. Guess what? We all have things that are easier for us and things that are harder, you know, and.

Kyle And Sara Wester (12:5.680)
Yeah.

Katia Fredriksen (12:6.680)
This is how your profile looks. Emphasis on the positives, right? Because that's really such an important part of the take home message. But guess what? A and B are harder for you. And there's a name for that. Here's what it's called. Plenty of other people also sort of have this. And there are great things we can do at school, at home, et cetera, to help sort of boost up the areas that are harder for you. I think it ends up being less of a, oh, I've gone away with some label that's scary and more of an empowering self.
actualization sort of type experience, you know what mean?

Kyle And Sara Wester (12:37.742)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you could speak to two things I'm thinking of, one, I think it seems like there's been an explosion of kids being diagnosed with autism, right? So I remember back in the day when ADHD was first a thing and it seemed like every kid was getting diagnosed with that at that time as well. And so if you could speak to that, is there a lot of misdiagnosing of it? Is it more just an awareness of it more? so I...
Can you, can you kind of inform the audience by that? this week you're hearing about it all the time in a way you didn't used to.

Yael Rothman (13:10.136)
Definitely, a lot of the increase in diagnoses is in the more subtle presentations of autism. So these were individuals who would have been missed earlier on. So it's not that the explosion has happened with the, as maybe we're all aware, this huge umbrella term of autism encompasses a,

Kyle And Sara Wester (13:23.534)
Mmm, okay.

Kyle And Sara Wester (13:36.366)
Yes.

Yael Rothman (13:38.776)
quite a discrepant population from individuals who could be nonverbal, individuals who could be intellectually disabled to we think Albert Einstein and, you know, like individuals who are very, Bill Gates, yes, has talked about how he thinks he would have met criteria for a diagnosis. So it is these more subtle presentations where the individuals

Kyle And Sara Wester (13:50.885)
Yeah.

Katia Fredriksen (13:54.296)
Bill Gates.

Kyle And Sara Wester (13:55.438)
Yeah.

Yael Rothman (14:8.270)
females were not as often diagnosed early on. So that seems to be where a lot of the increase has happened. Are there misdiagnoses is an interesting question. We are evidence based practitioners, we follow the criteria to

Kyle And Sara Wester (14:20.432)
Mmm.

Yael Rothman (14:32.710)
for a diagnosis. Could there be a miss? Sure, I'm sure that could exist. I don't think that's what the numbers are that are happening. But yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (14:36.686)
Yeah, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (14:41.232)
Yeah.

Katia Fredriksen (14:44.108)
Yeah. And we always, um, at least I know I can speak for both of us diagnostically, but we always err on the side of caution, right? So if you're not sure, or if you feel quite, uh, first we're very data-driven. We're going through those. It's, it's not like, Oh, this feels like X, Y, to me. has to be very data-driven because you really want to be able to dot your eyes and cross your T's. So you get, you, you work with the child yourself. You

Kyle And Sara Wester (15:2.159)
Mm-hmm.

Katia Fredriksen (15:10.870)
speak with the parents and get data from them. You speak with teachers, get data from them, therapists, psychiatrists, whoever, know, so you're getting lots of different angles. And if you're sort of like, well, I'm not quite there yet. Like I think this is it, but we're not quite taking all those boxes. And then you proceed with caution and you just talk to the family and you say, here's sort of what I'm wondering about. I'm not sure about this, this and this. Let's talk about it see if we can flesh this out. And I think too, it's so important to, who knows the child better than their parents to involve them in this collaborative process.
It's different than that traditional medical model where you go into the office and the person has their white lab coat on and they come out and they say, do have this, don't. It's a little, we really want to involve the families and get their information and their support with this process.

Kyle And Sara Wester (15:53.262)
Well, and also on top of that, I think a lot of the diagnosis, quote unquote explosion that I'm talking about is you see a lot of kids getting the diagnosis and mom or dad will come in and they'd be like, I think I probably have it too. It's like, see like, you're saying there's a lot of like, they'll, they just never got diagnosed because it never was that. And so, so you do see that happening more of just that awareness of what it is.

Katia Fredriksen (16:6.244)
Yes, 100 percent.

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:18.530)
Oh, I always thought this was a little weird about me or whatever. And like, that explains it, you know? But, but if you could tell the listeners, why did we get rid of Asperger's for instance, because I think that that was kind of for me, when I was an elementary school counselor, that was when I heard a lot for kids with that kind of subtle kind of autistic stuff going on. But why, why did they get rid of that and move more towards this broader umbrella term?

Katia Fredriksen (16:41.622)
Right, I think it was a useful term in many respects simply because it did allow that designation, like it gave people language to use to make that distinction. Right? And I think many parents were more comfortable with that term because again, there was the implication this is a bright kid and you know, and of course we know that the diagnosis of autism also refers to bright kids, but it was just that distinction I think felt more ironclad to people.

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:54.244)
Yeah.

Katia Fredriksen (17:7.028)
So the reason, so I think there are multiple reasons the diagnosis was removed. I one is that, you know, the person on whom it was based, Hans Asperger, was discredited for his work related to the Nazis and so on. And so that his name was Tard, right? And negative implications associated with his name. So that was part of it. And then another part was inconsistency in diagnosis.

Kyle And Sara Wester (17:24.292)
Mm-hmm.

Katia Fredriksen (17:31.940)
So I remember hearing around the time they updated the diagnostic manual in 2013 when Asperger's was removed. I remember hearing that in California, for example, if a kid met criteria for Asperger's, many clinicians would diagnose autism because you needed autism to get like, it was the diagnosis required to get the services or the insurance. So I remember hearing at the time, so there were just times when people were diagnosing strategically to get their clients needed services. And so you might have a...
client and a kid in one state who would be called one thing and the same kid would be called something else in another state because of the desire to access needed services. That sort of thing. It was just this inconsistency. And so I think it became, it started to make, and finally, I would add also, think some of this perception that Asperger's was this sort of high functioning bright was not always necessarily the case, right? And so it was sort of, it could be misleading at times.

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:8.398)
Yes. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:27.545)
Hmm.

Yael Rothman (18:28.334)
you

Katia Fredriksen (18:28.364)
So people could qualify for an Asperger's diagnosis, but still be quite affected and have a hard time navigating through certain things in life, which people didn't always understand because they had this association with it being this quote unquote, sort of milder type thing.

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:37.008)
Yeah.

Yael Rothman (18:40.802)
The other diagnosis was called autistic disorder, but you could have what people would call high functioning autistic disorder. And it was muddled. But I also think that it's a little controversial that we kind of pushed everything under an umbrella without really understanding, these have separate neurobiological bases? I...

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:44.408)
Okay.

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:47.962)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yael Rothman (19:8.374)
There's a lot to understand here that we still will have to do research on and look into. The population is so discrepant. I'm not sure if you know this quote, but we say it all the time. You meet one person with autism, you only have ever met one person with autism. It's just, have you heard that one before?

Kyle And Sara Wester (19:26.825)
Okay.
No, I've not, no, I don't know. Yeah.

Yael Rothman (19:31.244)
Definitely a motto I would say that we share because it is very different to the presentation. Everyone meets the same criteria, but the way they present can look very different from one person to the next.

Katia Fredriksen (19:45.124)
So you can now, under the current autism diagnosis, you are supposed to distinguish level one, two, three, which refers to different levels of impact or severity, of levels of need. But again, it's just not satisfactory because one person may, so say for example, you have someone who is non-speaking and so they need to use some sort of assistive communication device, but they're perfectly capable. They go out, they buy their groceries, they clean their house, they have a job.
What level is that person on? Right? mean, or the professor who, you know, is, you know, the stereotypical absent minded professor who may not have the street smarts practical skills to navigate through. So what level, who knows? Right? It's so ambiguous.

Kyle And Sara Wester (20:16.195)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (20:27.940)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yael Rothman (20:30.712)
We do tell clients that they can choose these words to use. While Asperger's is no longer a term and there are reasons we don't use his name, if you want to use it, that is your choice, right? I want to make sure that you are finding what fits you and what feels most comfortable for you.

Kyle And Sara Wester (20:45.704)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (20:54.446)
I have a question, but I'm not really sure how to word it. So I'm gonna work on this here, see if I can get this across. I think like you were just talking about, it can look so different. And I love that quote. I love that way of thinking about it. What it brought up for me are all the parents who you see this thing happening with your child and you think it's a behavior problem. And so you're disciplining them, disciplining them.
why are they doing this? It can feel very intentional on the child's part. It feels like they're just pushing back at me. But then down the road after getting some help, they eventually find out, oh, it's this thing. There's a reason why my child is doing this. But all this time I've been disciplining them or punishing them or thinking I had it in this category and then I learned this behavior is from this category. Does that make sense? I just wondered if...

Katia Fredriksen (21:49.389)
and

Kyle And Sara Wester (21:51.468)
Are there more of those that maybe parents could be aware of to go, oh, maybe I should look at this a little different. Maybe be curious about this. Are there any, anything out there where you could just say, hey, parents, if you feel like you're seeing this, maybe you should consider looking into this. And you're saying from like a really young age. Cause there may be, maybe there's some that are a little more obvious that people in general go, oh, if my child's not talking.
But maybe there's some, don't know, are there any, are there some that you could speak to or say, Hey, maybe just be curious about this.

Katia Fredriksen (22:26.262)
And part of the, yeah, Elle, you should answer that. Cause I heard you, I heard an intake and I you had a thought, but I was going to say part of the problem is that we, it's this like social media world where we see the best side of everybody else's life. Cause that, I mean, some people post about tragedy and so on, but very often it's, me share my cool vacation pics, my back to school pics or my graduation pics or whatever. And so we don't see, and that, so part of, as you were talking, I was thinking part of what has helped me on my journey as a parent is my girlfriends, right?

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:45.327)
Yes.

Katia Fredriksen (22:56.126)
And the mom friends I meet through like the kids preschool or elementary school or Girl Scouts or whatever, and sort of comparing notes. But you have to have a level of comfort with a person to do that because people don't openly share those things because we're socialized now to post all this sort of like idealized sort of stuff on social media. And then you might go around thinking, I'm the only one whose kid is, is it something wrong with them? Is it something wrong with me? And it can feel very isolating.

Kyle And Sara Wester (23:4.793)
Mm-hmm.

Katia Fredriksen (23:23.421)
So taking that leap to trust that you're, you know, in developing those friendships and just that community, I think is such a powerful tool.

Yael Rothman (23:32.536)
think whenever you as a parent are starting to question something you should always ask and find out a little bit more. And starting with a pediatrician can be a perfect step, but if you're noticing frustration.
regularly, the question might be like, is this what is expected because we're all frustrated sometimes as parents, or is this unexpected? And I say everyone should ask and find out a little bit more here. If you're thinking of, these typical features are seen in what we would expect, it's hard to have those like a set, right, because of the variability in populations.

Kyle And Sara Wester (24:18.768)
Mm-hmm.

Yael Rothman (24:20.002)
I think another piece to keep in mind, and we share this a lot too, is that children, they want to be good.
They want to be praised, they want to do well. And if you are seeing your child like more in a, he wants to be bad or she wants to frustrate me and this is manipulative, I would reframe that a little bit and take a look and say, oh, actually, I wonder if this is really hard for my child to listen and follow this direction. Maybe this is a true brain based challenge.

Kyle And Sara Wester (24:56.718)
Yeah.

Yael Rothman (24:58.860)
wonder if this is really hard for my child to sit still at the dinner table. I wonder if it's really hard for my child to engage in back and forth play with me and just kind of do those questions. We're keeping in mind or handling the unexpected is a very big one. I wonder if transitions are truly complicated for my kiddo. And then always ask that I do think parents

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:11.727)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:16.526)
Mmm, yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:22.224)
Yeah.

Yael Rothman (25:26.890)
intuition is so powerful and so I would ask if you're having any questions.

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:33.636)
Yeah.

Katia Fredriksen (25:33.774)
And if you feel, I was just gonna say, and you feel that you're being poo-pooed, because parents will come to us and say, oh well, the pediatrician just said that this is typical and I'm just an anxious parent. I mean, you know, then maybe that's not the pediatrician for you, because maybe you are anxious, but that's not the thing to say to someone who's anxious, right? So, I mean, you know, just look at your team around you and evaluate whether you're comfortable with them.

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:43.332)
Yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:55.748)
Well, and then of course I think you'd recommend they buy your book too. Well, and I wanted to say that, and I'm sure you guys would agree on this, what I think is great about your books and how accessible they are, how easy they are to read and understand is that would encourage every listener to just think about where, your kids are engaging. Like every day, whether they go to public school, private school, they're part of some kind of homeschooling co-op, they're going to be around kids with ADHD and with autism. And

Katia Fredriksen (25:58.690)
Well, actually...

Kyle And Sara Wester (26:25.548)
I think sometimes what that can lead to going back to when we don't understand something, we become very judgmental and critical of it. And we think, what is wrong with that kid? That kid is so weird or what's his deal? When really what I think has been so wonderful about what I saw in the public school setting where I was elementary school counselor is once they started doing the integration approach where kids with special needs were more integrated into the classrooms, I saw that sometimes handled really poorly, but I also saw that handled really well where
kids who had never been around a kid who had some special needs, like autism or ADHD, all of a sudden you saw them have more compassion and more that they wanted to be more helpful. They didn't see that kid as weird. They saw that kid as interesting and they really were curious about how that kid saw the world and how he talked, right? And it was really cool to see that happen. So what I think is really cool about your books and really helpful is if parents just had them on their shelves,
whenever they see their kid interacting with another kid and they're like, why is that kid acting that way? They can be like, let's read this book. Let's understand because then we can be helpful and maybe know how to relate and how to connect with that kid so that kid doesn't feel alone, isolated, and just ashamed of who they are.

Katia Fredriksen (27:39.544)
Oh, you're right. And that's such a sad thing. always feel like going into this elementary school I went into the other day, I was mentioning, or going into my kid's school to like, you know, do like the class party or whatever. And you see the kid who sort of sticks out a little and your heart just goes out because you really are hoping that the other kids are being able to appreciate this, what this child brings to the table positively as well, right? And yeah, we've certainly had feedback from.
know, friends, family, et cetera, reading the book with their kids around, you know, this whole, this ever happen to you when we're presenting the vignettes and asking the interactive questions and kids saying, well, no, but Jimmy in my class does that and sort of how it opens this discussion into perhaps having a deeper understanding.

Yael Rothman (28:23.650)
And then can the child relate back to themselves? So Jimmy needs to move a little more than I do. But I need that like quiet time sometimes when it's too loud at the birthday party or, you know, and then just realize, oh, we all have different levels of need that help us become super successful. So that's what this child needs. And what do you need? And remember when you were afraid to go to swim class and like, we all have different things that we require.

Kyle And Sara Wester (28:29.092)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (28:36.366)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (28:52.264)
What if I can add to that, two quick thoughts I have is I remember years ago helping a kid who was younger, who definitely was on kind of would have been called the Asperger's or more kind of this high functioning autism. But even then there were times he did have blow ups at school or with friends in the neighborhood. And I remember him being just a young little boy just weeping in my office about an event that happened where some kids said, he's weird. He has anger problems. Right. And he just was so heartbroken about that. And so part of the process
we did with him was helping him better understand these things and get help for them. But that story, I think, was always going to stay with him. But it was an opportunity missed by those other kids to better understand and be compassionate. And that's my second story. There have been many kids who later on in the high school years went back and got a diagnosis and found out. And it was so cool to be there on that journey to now see them reflect on both ways in which it was sad.
that how they thought of themselves in such a negative way, but also how healing it was to where they realized, oh, that's why I didn't fit in in those environments, right? And then it was really cool to see like mom or dad who had been so hard on them in those elementary years, especially when it came to sports or those kinds of things where the kid wasn't performing the way they wanted to. And for them to come to that realization, I've had these dads just weeping in my office. So now I know that all that time,
he did want to do well. And the whole time I just, and that, so those kinds of healing moments that happen. So I want to hear that for the listeners, I know this is for six to 12 year olds, it works for kids. Like I think my, those high school kids would have liked to read this too and be like, Oh, I wish I would have had this back in those elementary years. You know?

Katia Fredriksen (30:34.308)
Isn't it true? Yeah, and those moments that you describe are both so beautiful and just so like heart rending, right? I think it speaks to that larger issue that we just as parents face where the hopes and expectations and dreams we have for our kids either based on things we did or did not have in our own childhood or just things that we've developed as we've moved through our lives and how hard it is when our child...

Kyle And Sara Wester (30:40.325)
Yeah.

Katia Fredriksen (31:0.174)
just doesn't fitting in those molds that we have sort of unconsciously developed. And it's hard for all of us, you know, whether whatever the, whatever the, whether it's sports for that dad, were taught, whatever it is, it's just such a, like we have to stop and examine that all the time. Like, is this what I hoped and dreamed for myself or is this, you know, an appropriate thing to be thinking about with regard to the unique needs of my child, right?

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:19.824)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:26.810)
Yeah.

Yael Rothman (31:28.096)
It also made me think when you were talking about that, we sometimes will see an adolescent in high school who's had a diagnosis, but it hasn't been told to them.
parents will say we have kept this because of those fears that we talked about earlier, and how it can be a little crushing for the adolescent to find out later, like this would have explained so much for me. And it would have, so just to the parents listening, when I know there are these worries that we come to, but it can be so helpful from the onset to talk about this and have this be the discussion, then keeping it until later in

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:54.212)
Yeah.

Yael Rothman (32:11.568)
life.

Kyle And Sara Wester (32:12.388)
Yeah, well, we want to thank you so much for giving your expertise. want to, how can the audience get the book and how can they learn more about what you're doing? Please let them know how to connect with you.

Yael Rothman (32:24.600)
Sure. We can, you can buy the book, think, wherever books are sold, our publisher, Boys Town Press or Amazon or Barnes & Noble, wherever you'd like. Katia and I have an Instagram account called NeuroPsychMoms.

Kyle And Sara Wester (32:41.003)
Oh great!

Yael Rothman (32:42.154)
And we provide evidence-based information if you're looking for information about autism, ADHD, learning challenges, interesting topics in the news. We try to present some information there. And you can definitely be in touch with us through that, yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:1.872)
That's awesome. Good. So definitely go check that out on Instagram and get the book, have it on your shelf because you never know what friends may need that or what, what your kids may run into. I just think even reading about this is going to be so prevalent in everybody's life, just to have a better understanding of what these kids are going through, how they see the world and, um, it may help you understand yourself better as well. So once again, thank you so much for being on with us and joining us today.

Katia Fredriksen (33:28.580)
Thank you for having us. We enjoy chatting with you guys so much.