Episode 124

I'm going to tell you a little secret. When we first were about to have kids, I had no idea what I was doing. And I assumed my wife knew exactly what to do. I put so much on her shoulders when it came to raising the kids when they were little. I actually kind of thought I'll just check in when they're about three or four. And that's when I'll jump into this because she's so good at all this other stuff. And that's a problem in so many families.

where dads have checked out because of, not because they don't want to be involved, but because they don't know how or don't believe they can. And today we're bringing on a special guest who really speaks so well into this space to help dads be able to share in this journey and really deepen their relationship with their kids and to help moms also with that discussion with their husbands and their spouses or partners.

to be able to really have a more full existence as a dad or a mom with the family. So today we're inviting on a social media influencer, Paige Connell. She's known on social media. She is a page turner and she is constantly putting out contact on this subject. And I think you're going to love this conversation. That's really just balanced and really helpful to draw in. Like I know I just felt my heart moved throughout the conversation about how to

share this with my wife and about how to really engage the kids in just little ways. And you'll, hear all the little tips and tricks that she's going to share throughout the podcast. So whether you're a dad, whether you're a mom, this podcast today is for you. And I encourage you to jump on and listen today. And if you could stop for a moment, if you haven't done this already, take a moment to, pause, to, to rate and review the podcast today. You know, this is the currency of the podcast world helps us be seen by more dads, more moms.

helps more kids. And we just want to get the word out about the work that we're doing. And we're so appreciative of all the comments you send and when you write interviews. So please, if you haven't done that yet, just take a moment to do that and then sit back and enjoy this conversation as we talk with Paige about changing these dynamics for our kids.

Welcome to the Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. Hi, I'm Sara. And today we've got a special guest with some very important help to give our families today. Yeah, I'm excited. And we found our guest, Paige Cannell, on Instagram, on TikTok, where she's killing it, helping a lot of families be able to shift some patterns that sara and I, I mean, we see these patterns so often in families down here in Tulsa.

but I know Paige, you're up in the Northeast and you see these same patterns up there too, where it just seems like the load, the responsibility, I just think the importance of parenting, of raising kids is way too imbalanced. So I wanna say welcome Paige, thank you for coming on. And I wanna ask you, can you give them a little background? I know you're the mom of four kids.

Mm -hmm. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

all very young, kind of elementary age kids. know you're a working mom. I would love to hear how you got into this. How did you get so passionate about this?

Yes.

Sure. So yes, I am a mama for kids. I became a mom in what some would consider a non -traditional way, but I was a foster mom first. so fostered my two oldest children and then we did ultimately adopt them. But we went from no kids, my husband and I to four kids in three years. So it was a busy time. So I really got thrown into it very quickly. mean, willingly, but quickly. And you know,

my goodness.

Yes.

I found myself kind of opening my eyes one day, really when they say it's like you blink, right? I opened my eyes one day and I looked around and I said, whoa, what happened? Why am I responsible for every single thing that has to do with the kids? And that's not to say my husband wasn't a really involved dad, right? He was always with us, always at dinnertime and bath time and all the things, but he wasn't responsible for anything, right? He wasn't responsible for the doctor's appointments or the school forms or...

Hmm.

packing the lunches, any of those things. And I started to talk about it obviously in my day -to -day life with him and we're a dual income home. So we both work full time, right? And so you would imagine there'd be some sort of equity in that situation and there wasn't. And so we worked on it in our life and around six months into us really working to course correct, I was on TikTok for fun. I just was there for fun. I wasn't trying to do anything or.

Yeah, totally.

you don't have any kind of specific impact. But when I started to share my experience of motherhood and marriage and specifically around the mental load and this inequity that exists between a lot of men and women, as it pertains to parenting, especially, I started to gain traction and a following and so have spent a lot of time talking about these things. And I think the reason it's resonated is because I've also gone through it, right? I'm not talking to people from the perspective of somebody who never struggled with this.

I did and still do sometimes. And so I can share those experiences and provide insight into what I'm doing, how I'm trying to get out of it and work through this with my partner. And I think that's why it's been relatable to so many other women in particular, because that tends to be who follows me.

Yeah, that's great. And one page I know our audience has typically been about 60 4060 % women 40 % men. And so when I saw your content, when we had a chance to connect with you, the thing I thought that would be so powerful for both men and women to hear is just I feel like I'm kind of telling on myself, but I felt like when I look back, I was so immature.

Mm.

I felt like I was so, even though I saw, obviously growing up, I saw these stereotypical roles where my dad was seen as the provider, even though my mom worked two or three jobs. And even sometimes my dad was unemployed for some years. My mom always worked, know, Paige, in my experience, my mom never ever served us a frozen dinner. She always had a home cooked meal. My mom was the one who always got us to clean the house.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Hmm.

My mom was the one who did all of that stuff. And I even look back and sometimes lament and I was telling sarathis and in leading up this conversation, I sometimes lament that all my memories of doing quote unquote fun things was with my dad. Like my dad was the one who was building Legos with me. My dad was the one playing tennis with me. And I always would think of why didn't my mom do that? Because my mom was just exhausted. Like I was actually super annoyed every time I wanted to watch a movie with my mom, she fell asleep because she was just so.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

So tired and I noticed early on in our marriage where I started slipping into these stereotypical roles, even though I know we discussed not doing it was even when they talked about getting pregnant. You know, I remember as soon as we were discussing getting married and all stuff, I thought for sure Sara's just gonna get on birth control and it's not gonna be my responsibility to think about any of that stuff. And when we decide to have kids will be up to her and all that stuff.

Mm -hmm.

I look back and think like it was so like sarastood up for herself and that says, no, no, no, no, this is going to be something we discuss and something that we are doing together. And that really blew my mind because I thought that was all her job to do. And then what that led into was then once we had babies was then leaving all of that to her that she's just better at that.

Mm -hmm.

Right? She's better at waking up in the middle of the night and feeding the baby. She's better. She's just kinder. Right? And so I saw a pattern that I'm sure you see a lot where even before the kids came into the picture, I was already believing that I was less competent and capable than her and therefore justifying why I give it all to

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Yeah, I think it's a really common dynamic because of how our society functions, right? The gender roles that we've all seen and been taught and also how we place value or worth on ourselves, right? Oftentimes women are told your ultimate job is to be a mom, right? That's your ultimate job in life. It's it's the best thing you're ever going to do. And so when you become a mom, that identity swallows you up, right? And so then you think, OK, well, this is what I was supposed to do. This is

This is the best thing I'm ever going to do. So I have to do it and I have to go all in and it has to be all encompassing. And men, on the other side of that, are often taught to strive towards building amazing careers and financial aspirations and all of these things, right? And to be a good dad means to show up and play with your kids once in a while and to be there for the championship game. But to be a good mom means you're there for everything, right? As a mom, you have to be there for everything. For a dad, you just have to be there sometimes to be considered good.

Yeah, yeah.

Yep. Yep. Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so I don't think it's an individual failure of anyone. And I often think sometimes we go into it with the best of intentions, right? I know my partner and I, I was this kind of independent woman. had a job. I always intended to keep my job. I worked really hard and I thought, okay, well, when we have kids, our good balance that we have now will continue. But then we had kids and I realized that narrative of Paige is better at this. Paige knows what she's doing.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

inherently better at finding a pediatrician. I just Googled it, right? And I called and I asked them if they had an appointment, right? That's what I did. And it didn't take any sort of like a magic skill set. It's just general adulting. And so I think there's this narrative that as things pertain to children, women are just inherently better at them. But I think we're seeing more and more, even on social media, women sharing how difficult parenting is, how difficult motherhood is. And

Really kind of pulling back the curtain and saying you might think it's easy for us, but it's not. We're not inherently good at this either. We're working really hard. We're putting in a lot of time and a lot of effort. And even when you think about companies and marketing and social media, right, the videos and pictures I see on my for you page on Instagram are vastly different than my husband's. He's not getting potty training tips and sleep sack reviews, right? I am though. I'm getting those. And so

Yeah.

Yes.

Society as a whole is kind of working against us striving towards equity in these situations, right? Because the importance is being placed on mom. The emphasis and the accountability and the respect of responsibility is on mom. And so I think the situation you found yourself in that I found myself in often happens. And we don't even see it happening, right? And I don't often I think it's important to note that I don't often think there's ill intent. I think sometimes.

yeah

Yes.

Yeah.

There's a partner who just does not care to be involved. But I think most often, nobody went into it with the intent to harm the other person or to overburden them. And so I think it's important to, once the conversations start to happen, decide where we go from here. Right now we both know better, so now what do we do?

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It almost, I would use the word, almost seemed like common sense to me. It's just common sense, honey. It's just common sense. You're better than you do. Yeah. Yeah. I think just, I really relate to you kind of waking up one day and saying, wait, how did all this happen? And cause I really felt like we had tried, you know, we felt like we were really having the conversations and being so intentional. And then you do wake up one day and go, wait a second. And there is that assumption that

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Yes, I am the mom. So somehow I magically know all this stuff or I can magically do all these things. And you just find one day, wait, what happened? This is very, very skewed. And something that I worked a lot, my background is very heavy in early childhood and infant mental health. And a big piece was I had the realization of how much attachment plays into this.

Mm.

I was getting all these opportunities for great attachment with my children. And while we know that a single attachment will help your child for the rest of their life and they'll be able to attach to other people, how much better is it that we had another person right here that they could attach to, but what you find is that child's really attaching to the mom and the dad is kind of missing out.

Mm -hmm.

on that early attachment time where this child could learn not only is there one person I can go to, not only is there one person I can trust and is there for me, but look, here's another person I know is there for me. And so it's the practicality of just doing the tasks, but also the relationship and the attachment instead of the dad coming in at three years old or something. I know Kyle kind of had the mind, well, you get them early on and then I'll join later, but then you have to

work at that attachment at that point. And you lose that. there's the piece of sharing, sharing the workload, but also just the opportunity for dads to come in. I mean, I say dads, because often it's the mom and the dad, right? So, but the dad comes in and you want him to have that attachment, that relationship, and it can start right from the beginning. It's not, let me join later after you get them to a certain point.

Mm -hmm.

Sure.

Yeah, you know, I often think there's this confusion around this conversation, specifically from men when we talk about these kind of heteronormative relationships where I will say, dads, you should be helping with the overnight feedings, right? Like you should be doing that with your partner. They shouldn't have to do it all by themselves for the first year of that baby's life. Like yes, sleep is important for everyone, but you should participate. And the pushback will be, well, I have a job or they're better at it or...

Yep. Yep.

their breastfeeding. And I think that misses, right? I think what they're hearing is you need to share the work. You need to share the work. You also need to lose out on sleep. know, they're, hearing like the logistical side of it, but then there's that other side of it, which is that bonding, right? Oftentimes we as women are expected

Yes.

to do all of these things and yes it is work, but also that is why we come out the other side and these babies are so attached to us and why I know this cry means this and this cry doesn't. I know this because I've just spent so many overnights with this baby by myself figuring out what these cries mean. I didn't just know this. I've been spending all this time doing this and this baby knows what that when they hear my voice.

Yeah. Yeah.

something's coming, whether it's their bottle or a diaper or a snuggle, like the baby knows, right? Because they've heard my voice that many times before in the middle of the night, and they know what that comfort will look like. When they don't have that from their dads, right? When they don't have that from the other parent, they don't trust that that parent has that ability to soothe them, right? And so men will often say, well, like when I do it, the baby cries for 10 minutes. And when you do it, the baby stops crying in 10 seconds. And again, it's because...

Yeah.

Yeah.

the baby and mom have built this relationship. They've worked really hard at it together to know that this is what happens next, right? And chances are early on that baby did cry for 10, 20 minutes for mom and she figured out all the things to do to hopefully make that baby not cry. And so, you know, I often encourage men to look at it as more than just a chore because I think that's what they hear is like, you want me to wash the bottles or you want me to do this. But when you wash the bottles,

Yep. Yep.

you start to learn about nipple sizes of bottles. And why are we changing the nipple size of this bottle? What does that mean for the baby, right? All of these things come with the work, right? When you're part of it, when you're part of these everyday things, filling out school forms for older kids, when you fill out that school form, you know the nurse's name, you know the teacher's name, you know the principal's name, you learn all of these things, right?

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

When you know these things, now you can have conversations with your kids. You can say, you had to to the nurse today, how is Ms. So -and -so? Was she able to help you? Being able just to know the nurse's name, right, means a lot to your kid. It means you're invested in their life and they will know that their dad cares enough to know who their nurse is, right? And so I think about it less as I think when I say these things, right, like yesterday I had this post where I said, like, you can make the lunch and you can fill out a school form and you should volunteer at school.

Yes.

Yeah, yep, yep.

It's not that I just want men to do more quote unquote work. I really think it's inviting them into the experience of being a part of their kids' lives and in a really meaningful way.

Yeah, man, I love that page. And even tying that into also what sarawas saying, I remember when I mean, like I said, kind of telling myself with my first, my oldest, who's 14, you know, I definitely was not involved in those early years. And I could justify it by saying, Honey, you have like, you're an infant mental health trained individual. Why would I jump in and do this? Like, it's almost, I almost like in my mind, I was like, it's almost like a detriment for me to jump in, like, you're great at this, you know, and then and then with the second

Yeah.

I was like, no, I need to be more involved. But then when sarastarted like really coming towards me with like, you're missing out Kyle. Like it isn't just, need your help. It's just, I actually want you to have this bond. And so with our third, a month in, I was helped.

You know, two months in, I'm waking up and helping, still not doing as much as she was doing for sure. But I was there and I was holding her at night, learning how to hear her voice and those different cries that she had. I definitely felt a much deeper bond in those early years with her because I took that time. And as an elementary school counselor, going back to what you're saying is, I feel like that's where you lead in those early years if you're not involved.

then you go into this school stuff. go into what I have noticed as I've tried to help coach parents is you start to see the dad in a lot of these general cases that they're pulling further and further away because they don't know those stories. Like even, you know, the little seven or eight year old will say, it's just easier to tell mom because mom knows all my friends names. You know, every time I tell dad, I've got to like,

Yeah.

tell dad who that teacher is and what they teach. And it's like, they're just, don't know it. So therefore it seems like it is better just to go to mom, you know? And there is this resistance to then learn from dad because dad doesn't know these things, you know? So I think those, when I saw that particular post you did, I was thinking just little things like that, just inserting yourself into these, like going up to the school, letting the teacher know who you are, all these, these kinds of things. When I was a school counselor, that helped so much for that kid.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

and that teacher to feel connected to the dad and the school to feel connected to the dad.

Yeah, I think it's so important. I think it was last year. My husband and I were going to the back to school night. Our two oldest kids were at the time in kindergarten and first grade. And so it's only our second year at this elementary school. We're new in the game, but we're there. And we were running late and there was no parking. So I dropped my husband at the door. I was driving and he went in. And when I got in, the principal made a joke. Like, your husband passed the test. And I was like, what test? And he's like, he knew the teacher's name.

Mm -hmm.

I was like, well, congratulations, I guess. I assume you aren't asking the women if we know the teacher's names because you assume we do. You assume we do. And I think more and more men are incredibly involved. I think a lot of these things are outdated.

Yes.

Yeah.

norms that people still really play into, right? I think many men are very involved in their kids' lives. I do think there's still a subset that aren't, right? And I think when we say involved, there's different layers of that too, right? And so I think my husband would have told you he was a very involved dad. He always helped with overnights, he always did the diapers, but he didn't know things like their best friend's name at school.

Yes. Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

And he wasn't the one coordinating play dates and he didn't know the teacher's names all the time because there's like always a floating teacher and then there's the afternoon teacher. And I'm like, right, it's not that hard to know. There's five of them. Like you could figure it out. And so, you know, I think he wasn't placing importance on those things. But for me, it was important because when my daughter said, well, the teacher did X, Y, and Z, I say, well, which teacher? And she's like, you know, the one with the purple hair. And I'm like,

Yeah.

Yeah, I do know the woman with the purple hair. You mean so and so? And then I could know who she was talking about, right? Because I know these people and I know their names. And so I think there's different layers of involvement. And what my partner and I strive for is being on the same playing field with our kids. So they trust that we both know the same information about them and their lives. And to your point earlier in this conversation, you know, there was a point in time where my kids, yeah, would walk around dad, right? They'd be like, go to mom. I would be in the shower.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm, mm, yeah.

Dad would be lying in bed and they would come into the bathroom to talk. I'm like, he's right there. He's right there. If you need to eat, go tell dad that you're hungry. Like I'm in a shower. I don't know what you want me to do. And so, but now my, especially my two younger ones, they get mad when I pick them up from daycare. They're like, I thought it was dad. And I'm like, sorry. Because they're, because they want him, right? Because he's so involved that at this point it's, they,

Yeah.

Yes.

we're on an equal playing field. Like dad can comfort them in the same way that I can. And they have the same expectations of both of us. And so that's really important. It's made a big difference in the way that they interact with him too, because they don't go around him to me. They go to him and they go to me. And that feels good, right? To be a parent that your kids want to go towards. I think that's amazing.

Yes.

Yes, my god.

Yeah, it definitely page. I was just thinking of when there was a time where I was working late a lot for several months. And my oldest was was, you know, every night was used to mom putting her to bed. And so then I was like, I had some time where I changed my schedule, I could be home more. And I was like, Sara, I want to be more involved in this. And so my oldest like, Yeah, cool. Dad gets to put me to bed. And then I remember, I feel like such a such an immature per you know, like, I was almost like a little kid, like a juvenile, I go to put her bed, and then she goes,

actually, actually, I want mom. And then I was like, What are you serious? Yeah, I don't think I want and then I mean, my reaction was like, fine, fine. You want mom? Fine. I mean, I'm here and you want mom. And I remember like, sarawas like, she's just saying she's like, the whole he's used to this routine. But I was like, No, it's too late. It's too late. She's already said it. And then then she was like, No, dad, I do want you. And I'm like, my gosh, what am I doing? Like, he took like,

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I can't keep taking this personal.

Yeah, you know, it's so funny. My daughter did the same thing last night. She's only two, but she pooped and my husband was like, she pooped, I'll go get her. And I was like, okay. And then he came out he's like, she's requesting you. And I'm like, great, cool, perfect. I'll go and change to the poopy diaper. So then I pick her up and I start walking her to the diaper table and she goes, actually, I do want dad. And I was like, okay, perfect. And so I called her dad and he came and he's like, what does she do? I was like, I don't know. She can't decide who she wants, but like that's best case scenario, right? Where she's...

Yeah. huh.

Yes.

She's just like, I don't know, like both are good. Both are good options. And even my now four year old every night, she'll be like, mom, you lie down with me and dad lies down with me and then you both lay with me. And then we do it all together. And I'm like, great. Okay, perfect. Because there's just this assumption that we're both going to be doing it, right? We're both doing bedtime together. We both do diapers. We both are kind of doing these things. And I do think to Sara's point, there was a point in time where I really struggled with my partner too on the other side of it where

Yes, yes.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Yeah. Yes.

He would come into breakfast, which I do every single day by myself because he usually leaves at 6 a and he'd disrupt the whole routine and the kids would be crying and they'd be yelling and it'd be like chaos and I'd be like, you've come in and you've just wreaked havoc over our mornings. He said, I was just trying to be fun. I was just trying to, you know, I'm never here in the mornings. And I'm like, right, but by doing that, you've confused them. You've disrupted my morning. Now we're running late.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes. Yep.

And nobody's actually happy. You tried to have fun, but you made it all crazy. What you could have done is ask, what is the morning routine? And how do I participate in it in a way that's good for you and for the kids, right? And so I think when you're trying to change these things, it can be really tricky, right? Cause it's very disruptive, especially to the kids. The kids know when you're trying to change these things and when the routine is changing and dad's trying to do more, right? Even with groceries, they'll be like, my husband does groceries now.

Yes. Yeah.

until they'll be like, mom, you didn't get peanut butter. I'm like, no, no, no, dad didn't get peanut butter. I told dad about the peanut butter. That's not on me. And so, you know, we've had to have that conversation with our older kids. I'm like, if you need something, tell dad, he's going to put it the grocery list and I will like, if he's not home, I will do it. But if daddy's here, daddy does groceries. So you go tell him what you want. Right. And so we're also trying to teach them at their young age, because I have a son and three daughters that they also

Mm -hmm.

you know, are an equal playing field as a little boy and little girls. I'm expecting the same thing out of both of them in hopes that when they get to the age of being parents that my son is just as involved as my daughters are.

Yeah, that's great. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And I like how I've heard you highlight it. And even in your talk, I hear this. It's not like the mom is holding it and assigning duties to the dad. It's really we are doing this. This is our family, our household. We can still split up what we're doing, but how are we planning that out and doing that together? Because I do hear even in that merge of

Mm -hmm. Yes.

his roles and her roles, there's still oftentimes she'll hold everything and just assign dad's helping, dad's babysitting. It's sort of like, well, it's her, it's ultimately hers, but he's how nice to come in and help. And I think that's a step maybe in that progression, but I love how in your talk, what you're saying is we are doing this.

Right? Because I think what I mentioned earlier is my husband was always very involved, right? But I held all of the responsibility. I was delegating everything, right? Hey, can you do this? Hey, can you do that? And he didn't always know the why behind it, right? Hey, can you put shorts in her backpack? Well, the why is because she had an accident yesterday and she needs new shorts at school. Can you put the shorts in the backpack? But it was my job to know that, right? That's the mental load portion. It was my job to know that she needed shorts and then to delegate to him to grab the shorts.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yep. Yes.

Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

because he was upstairs getting the laundry or whatever it might be. And at the end of the day, if something didn't get done or it fell through the cracks, the responsibility was on me because I was the one who held the keys to all of these things. And so it's really exhausting to be the person who, yeah, is in control or is almost like the project manager of the home, right? I don't, it's not fun. I always joke with people in my work environment because I'm like, want to be a manager. I'm like, no, you don't. Don't be a manager.

being a manager is awful, right? Like it's fun, but also now you are accountable to everybody else doing their work. And if they don't do their work, you are responsible for it. And now you have to do it. And it's a lot of work to manage people and nobody wants to manage their partner, right? Like, I don't want to manage you. You're my partner, you're my husband. You're not my employee, right? This weird dynamic where I'm in charge doesn't feel good. And so I think it can be really exhausting. And so yeah, the way we think about it is,

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

We are both responsible for the way our home functions and for the wellbeing of our children. We have individual tasks that we are responsible for, right? Like he feeds the dog before he goes to work. And I know he's going to do that because he said he would, but that doesn't mean the dog is not my responsibility, right? Like I also am responsible for this dog, but feeding him is a task that he has raised his hand for and does. But if he weren't here, if he worked in overnight, which he does often, then I feed the dog because I know that he can't.

Yeah.

Yes, Right. Yeah, yeah, that's good.

And so it's this partnership where we have each other's backs. We both know all the things that happen in our home. We can pick up the slack for one another when needed because I think something lost in this conversation is people get really fixated on this idea of 50 -50. we're all trying to be equal. And there's no such thing because our lives are not that straightforward. There's too much nuance, right? It's like, I'm sick or he's working long hours or the kids are sick or at school vacation. so...

Yeah. Yeah.

I have a more flexible job. He doesn't, right? There's all these intricacies of our lives that make it impossible to be 50 -50 at all times. And so it's never 50 -50. The goal is that it's fair, right? That it feels fair that our time is being spent in similar ways where I'm not spending exponentially more time doing house working kid stuff than he is, or he's not spending exponentially more time golfing while I'm at home doing this stuff, right? So, and not to say he doesn't golf, he does, but...

Yeah. Yeah.

I also get time outside of this house to be a human being and to spend time with my friends. And that's what we're striving towards is to have a fair and equitable partnership where we're both responsible and nobody's delegating things and we're not helping. He's not helping me. He's not taking anything off my plate because it's not mine. It's not mine. It's ours.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Yeah, yeah. that's right. I know. I know a different way to look at it. Yes. Yeah, that's really good point. What would be some thoughts that you would have, Paige, just for the listeners who are saying, whether they're the dad or the mom saying, I do feel like this is somehow too imbalanced, you know, how, how could I, what's some steps I could be taking today or this week to start changing those. we're modeling something healthier to our kids. Cause like you, we've got

two girls and a boy, and we really want, I know there's all these ways that her and I are constantly talking about doing this better and wanting to help our kids grow up and have even healthier relationships than even what we have, right? So what's some steps that you typically suggest or would advise them to start taking to be more aware of this and change these dynamics?

think one of the big parts is so much of this is invisible work, right? The mental load, even just the work that happens behind the scene, right? For example, I work from home. And so there's a lot of things I do on my lunch break, right? I just made my kids lunches before this call while I was making my breakfast because I was like, I'm just gonna multitask. I've already got the bread out, right? I've got the bread. I'm just gonna make the lunch. And so when he gets home, the lunch is just made, right? And so he doesn't see the work associated with that. He just sees the end results. And so some of it is making that visible.

Yeah.

Even silly things like birthday presents. We're going to a birthday party on Saturday. I ordered those presents a month ago because I RSVP'd to the party and I knew we needed presents and so I bought them. And so again, invisible work. It's not a lot of work, but little things stack up. And so I think the first thing to do is make that invisible work visible, but also just make all of the work visible. Right? And so you can do...

Yeah.

Yeah.

the fair play game, can do, there's apps out there that you can use, but I also just, my husband and I did fair play or a version of it, but what we tend to do now is we have an Excel spreadsheet and it lists all the things in our house that happen and from like top to bottom, right? And then we go in and we put our names next to the things that we own. And sometimes it's both and sometimes it's him and sometimes it's me. Sometimes it's outsourced, right? Whether you have a dog walker or whatever that might be.

Yeah.

at any given point in your time and in your life. And so we did that, right? That's what we did. We put it on paper and it was incredibly unequal, right? I think I owned like 65 things to his 15. And I was like, hey, this feels a little uneven, right? But the thing is, right, like I think this is a common experience and oftentimes we don't have...

Yes, yes.

Yes, yes.

tangible way to look at it, right? We're having that fight at home where it's like, I'm busy, no, I'm busy, no, we're both busy, where everybody's busy. And you can't point at any one thing to say, well, if you took this thing, that would free me up to do X, Y, and Z. And so I think just looking at all the things that it requires to make your home function, and it's very different for every home, right? In different ages, right? With older kids, I know my mom was running back and forth to a million activities and sports and

Yeah.

theater and camp and all the things. Whereas with me, with younger kids, I'm doing a little bit of that with my older two, but with my younger two, it's still things like remembering to buy new diapers and wipes and diaper cream and all that stuff. And so it changes as your life changes. And that's why I like the Excel spreadsheet, because we can go in and we can iterate and change it. Yes. And so we use that as a tool and then we can reflect back on it. If there's a period where I feel like my husband's kind of dropped the ball and I'm feeling, you start to feel resentment build up,

Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. Well, it's invisible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I go back and I look and I say, actually, I didn't remember, but you did commit to doing X, Y, and Z and you haven't. And I realized that I've taken it on just default. Again, like I don't know how we got here. I just did it. We need to come back to this conversation and we need to adjust. And I think the important thing again is we're not striving for equal, but I think just knowing all the things that are required and seeing it tangibly. And this is everything also too, to probably a lot of what saradid when your kids were young, which is,

Why am I the only one thinking about whether or not this baby's crawling on time? Why isn't she crawling? And how are we gonna get her to crawl? And if she doesn't crawl, do I have to call EI? And right, so it's not always a task, right? It's that mental work that we're always doing, especially when you have children, that adds up and can be really exhausting. And so think if you're looking for a place to start, this is a good place. And I think it's really important to come to it as much as you can from a place of calm.

Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.

but also with concrete evidence too and say, hey, X, Y, and Z happened and this is how I felt about it and I want to have a conversation. But I find, you I've done this myself where we've fought in the midst of something happening where I'm like, this is it, I'm done. Like you didn't empty the dishwasher again, I'm gonna lose my mind. And that doesn't bear fruit, right? That's not super productive. We've all done it. It's not productive. And so the most productive conversations that we've been able to have have been

Yeah. Yep.

sitting at the table when the kids are in bed and saying, okay, let's talk about it. And we come to it together with a shared goal of coming out on the other side with an objective of what we're going to do and how we're going to change it.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. And I think there was so many times what really helped me is these conversations where sarawould call out of me this value that I didn't even think I had. Like she'd be like, like you doing this. Yes, it helps me and I appreciate that. But it's actually something that's going to help all of us. So like, I think the kids seeing you do that, like even as you're talking page, my gosh, my brain is thinking like, I don't sarapacks the kids for every vacation.

Hmm.

Mm -hmm

saralike every suitcase is taken care of because she does that with the kids. I just take care of mine. And then I'm always like, look, cool. I'm ready to go. We ready for vacation? Or should then she like every Christmas gift. I learned about what they are. But it's only after like she's gone through and then every Christmas is awesome. Every birthday is awesome. And sometimes there's even gifts where I'm like, Whoa, we did what? Because she's had that all up here.

Mm

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

And it's all too easy as a dad to be like, yeah, my brain's on other things, right? When typically for me, it's on some stereotypical things like what is my football team doing this week? Or what is this? not thinking about these types of things. And so I hope every dad hears, and I love the way you voice it, Paige. You really hear your heart on this, that it is about a calling of like, this is beneficial. It's gonna help you. It isn't just gonna help her or help one or the other. It helps both and it helps all.

Yeah.

Like it helps for the kids to see it modeled. helps us in our marriage and our relationship, but it helps you as just an individual to grow as a person in this area, you know, and, really con I think to me it's helped me more fully experience what it means to be a dad and what it fully means to be a husband. and so I love that she's done that. love your voice out there speaking. hope every dad and mom are hearing that as, as you're talking, cause your, your heart really comes, comes through on that. So I want to ask, how can people find out more?

Mm

Yeah.

about what you're doing and connect with your work page.

Yeah, sure. So you can follow me on most social media at She Is A Page Turner, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. And I have a site, sheisapageturner .com. But yeah, you'll find me on social media. I'm pretty active, or at least try to be. And hopefully it is helpful.

Yeah, well, it's great content. Thank you. Yeah, it's very engaging, very exciting. We love watching it. And I know you're very passionate about a lot of causes too, like about more affordable childcare and other types of things. So if anybody listening is interested in being more involved with that or hearing more about that, Paige is a great voice in that area. So I would encourage you to go find her. So I want to thank you so much for taking the time with us, Paige, and just really sharing your insights with these families that listen to this podcast.

Thank you.

Mm -hmm.

Thank you for having me, I appreciate it.