Episode 150

Kyle And Sara Wester (0:19.788)
Is playing with your kids difficult? I know I sure find it a challenge so many times when the kids were little, specifically getting on the floor and playing with them, whether it was dolls or cars or even Legos at times, it was like, I had so many other things to do, don't we? Like we live in such a busy world and play can sometimes seem so frivolous. And lots of times we just want the kids to go off and play. Well, today we wanted to bring an expert to you, the author of the book, The Way of

play Georgie Weisen Vincent. co writes it with Tina Payne Bryson and this book is going to help you see play completely differently. It's going to help you have the knowledge of why play is so crucial to your kids development, actually how it's shaping their brains and so many important ways. But she's also going to give you specific steps and things you can do today to help increase your understanding of play and how to like really get into it, right? Like ways in which to really

make it more engaging for you. And so that way, then you're going to get more connected with your kids, understand your kids better. And I just love this conversation with her because it really helped increase my imagination even more about play and why it's so pivotal and also why it's so hard for so many adults to do it. So please, if you haven't already stopped for a moment, review, comment, like all that stuff helps us be seen by more parents. We're already at

2 % of parenting podcasts throughout the world, which is fantastic, but we'd love to increase that more, get up to 1 % and all the reviews and all that stuff really help us get up there. So we're more visible. So take a moment, get ready to learn about play and learn how much your kids want to do with you and how powerful it is

Kyle And Sara Wester (0:1.294)
Hello and welcome to the art of raising humans. I'm Kyle. Hi there. I'm Sarah. And you know, Sarah, something that we have found so powerful in our journey raising our kids has been the power of play. Yes. I love it. Yeah. And I know going into having kids, I didn't quite get it. To me, play was playing sports, playing video games. I thought you'd maybe watch your kids playing on the ground, but I didn't really know how much we were going to actually be playing with them. You know? Yeah. And how powerful.
Yeah, I think that's the key point right how transformational it is with your relationship with your kid and I know we've had a few podcasts lately with like dr Cohen and other way talked about more we kind of emphasized there a lot of rough housing and that kind of stuff but what we were really caught by was this book I forgot to bring it with me. I wanted to show it but I'll do it on the intro but Exactly called the way of play and

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (0:57.858)
Here it is. I've got the book downstairs, but here's the postcard to go with it. You can see the cover.

Kyle And Sara Wester (0:58.670)
Oh, you got it. Yay. Okay. She brought it. The way of play is a fantastic book that we want to dive into. So we wanted to introduce all of our guests, all of our listeners to our guests. Georgie was with San Vincenzo. Did I get it right that time? Okay, good. I stumbled over but without further ado, we want to welcome you and say thank you on our podcast.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (1:19.882)
You did!

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (1:26.764)
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited that we share such a love for play and I can't wait to dive in and start talking all about what we put in this book.

Kyle And Sara Wester (1:35.820)
And so before we get in the book, want to just hear how did you get interested in this? Like, why are you passionate about helping parents learn how to play with their kids?

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (1:44.034)
You know, it goes back like 25 years. I don't want to date myself or anything, but a long time ago I was working in residential and foster care, you know, locations, places where kids were having a rough time finding a stable place to live. And I was working in kind of a behavioral mode, like let's get in and just fix behavior. You know, how you can get into that kind of a mode in the mental health field.

Kyle And Sara Wester (2:2.986)
Mm. Yep.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (2:9.768)
it wasn't always working the way that I was hoping it would, even though the people who were training me was telling me, just keep doing the same things over and over again. And so that led me on a very long journey from Southern California, where I'm from, to London, England, where I did a master's degree in play therapy after becoming a marriage and family therapist. And thankfully, I'd already had all this experience with kids. So by the time I got there and I started learning play therapy.

which is what I went all the way over there for. I was like, oh my gosh, this is a whole other language that I wish I had known where we can reach kids, not only kids who have been through hard things, but also just your average everyday kid who's going to school every day or trying to learn and grow and connect and be with their parents in ways that they want to be and discover more about who they are.

Kyle And Sara Wester (2:44.994)
Yes.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (3:5.922)
through this incredible other form of communication, which is really kids' first language. So that's how I really became a play therapist. Then I became a mom after that, and that just changed the way I see play even more. And that's part of the reason why this book came about.

Kyle And Sara Wester (3:25.240)
Can you, because you started to touch on it, why is play so important to kids?

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (3:32.126)
So I remember having that conversation with my co-author who is, you know, is Tina Payne Bryson. She is the executive director of the Center for Connection where I came to work after meeting her completely by chance. I was pushing my son in a stroller when he was just a baby. He's now 10. So we've been together for a while. And I just, had this chance meeting with somebody who I knew her because she'd just written The Whole Brain Child.

Kyle And Sara Wester (3:36.514)
Yeah. Yes. Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (4:1.078)
Mm-hmm.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (4:1.714)
which is her first book with Dan Siegel. And it was on my nightstand. I was going through it every day. My son was way too little for me to use any of this. But I was already thinking about connecting with him. And I was thinking about all the, how much is actually happening in terms of brain growth and brain development when kids are really, really small. And I was talking to Tina and I was saying,

Kyle And Sara Wester (4:12.013)
Mm-hmm.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (4:29.090)
play and my work as a play therapist is actually how kids do a lot of their developing. And Tina was like, yeah, I have three boys. I totally know. And so that brought about this couple year conversation where I started putting together parenting curriculum and proposing it to Tina. And Tina was like, this would make a really great book, even though she said, I'm done writing books. I've written, you know, she's written many books in her series.

Kyle And Sara Wester (4:53.550)
Hmm... Yes, yes, yes.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (4:57.914)
with Dan and so play is really something that is really incredible because parents just don't know that they can tap into it. It is a way of sharing teaching and sharing skills with our kids. When our kids are just doing something that they enjoy, that they're not thinking a whole lot about, kids just naturally.

develop the capacity to play and there's no one right way for a child to play. That's something that's really important to me to say to all the folks that are listening that play looks all kind of ways. But when it really comes down to it, it is one child relating to what they're doing and what they're building and what they're creating and what they're creating in themselves. And when you add another person to that, that could be
a parent that could be a teacher, it could be a coach, it could be a grandparent, anybody. We wrote this book for anybody who spends time with kids and is wanting to help encourage all of their positive growth and development that they possibly can, that there's this other way of being connected and tapping into what kids do quite naturally that not a lot of adults know that there's some, I don't know, specific ways that we can
get even closer when kids are playing and also teach skills that can last a really long time and help them out.

Kyle And Sara Wester (6:27.502)
Well, what I love about that is, you know, kind of as we were talking before the interview, something that Sarah and I are really passionate about is this whole cool thing that happens with us and kids, where our kids are helping us grow and learn in many ways. But I think also what kids are doing is helping us tap into things that maybe we had forgotten, you know? And so I think like what you were saying there, how play...

has done that for me in many ways where you feel like once you grow up, you've got to be serious and you got to focus on responsibilities and you got to like, and like, you almost don't give yourself the freedom to just play and just be silly. And yet the moments that I've done that and allowed that to happen, you find joy is really easy to access. find the kids

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (7:0.354)
Hmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (7:11.980)
They love it. Like I'm even thinking of like a, just a silly moment as a school counselor where I was trying my first year as a school counselor. I didn't know what I was doing and I was supposed to talk to all these kindergartners about feelings. And so I would have a class of like 25 year olds and they would just be bored to death. And so one day I was like, I need to like do something fun instead of just talk about stuff. So I remember grabbing some Play-Doh and I was throwing it up in the air. And then I asked the kid to hand me another thing of Play-Doh.
And as I was throwing it, they were amazed at my ability to throw this in the air. And so one of the kids said, can you do that with your eyes closed? And I was like, I can try. And when I did, it hit me in the head and they were laughing so hard. And then I was like, this is easy. Like all I have to do is just be kind of silly with them. And then I found they were much more receptive and open to anything I was teaching because they saw I was willing to be childlike to kind of.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (8:5.099)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (8:9.100)
reach them and speak their language instead of just demanding they listen to the way I talk.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (8:14.658)
I'm so glad Kyle that you were able to discover a way, you know, you're poking fun at yourself a little bit, know, kids, especially as they get older, you know, our preteens and our teenagers, they, they are kind of embarrassed by us and they kind of, you know, they learn how to poke fun at us a little bit. And it's nice when we can do that to ourselves. We can sort of let down our guard. We can be a little less self-conscious about the whole thing. But I find that.

Kyle And Sara Wester (8:20.151)
Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (8:43.820)
parents feel a little bit lost about that. You were able to discover it in a moment of spontaneity, but so much about being a parent is about, or so much about being an educator or even a therapist is about using our prefrontal cortex, using the top uppermost parts of our brain that have taken a really long time for us to get there and be able to use those actively to think about how do I give kids structure? How do I think about what's coming next? How do I plan around their...

Kyle And Sara Wester (8:46.305)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Kyle And Sara Wester (8:59.810)
Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (9:13.718)
their behavior, you what do I do for the kid that's struggling? You know, what even is for dinner? Like I've got piles of laundry to do. Parents have so many adult concerns that it's actually a good thing that our brains keep developing beyond the, you know, the carefree, playful days of childhood so that we can take on these important executive tasks of being, you know, in charge of our families. But at the same time, I find that we forget or we have kind of a play amnesia.

Kyle And Sara Wester (9:25.154)
Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (9:42.998)
where we can't remember what it was like to get on the floor and bang two cars together or to throw Play-Doh up in the air or whatever, you know, whatever it might be in that moment, that we sort of take ourselves out of it and we think play is just for kids or even more concerning is that we think play is for a really limited time of childhood and then we're supposed to get busy with academics or get busy with structured activities for our kids to like prepare them for life.

Kyle And Sara Wester (10:7.628)
Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (10:12.960)
and we may not be giving them enough free and unstructured play anymore. So there's two things really. When adults learn how to play and we've given you some really easy ways to kind of just get your feet wet in it again and kind of relearn what's so magical about this for kids and how can we jump into that too. Just dipping our toes in it a little bit. You don't have to spend hours and hours playing. It could just be a couple of minutes after school or
in the morning to make the morning routine go easier or whatever that looks like for your family. And the other thing is when parents appreciate play, when they learn what's actually happening in terms of their child's development, then we might be extending the amount of time that kids get to be in this brain building state of free unstructured play too that we need to preserve for them. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (11:2.187)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to, as you were talking, I mean, one, I want to say I've been through your book and for the parents out there, if you're feeling like you don't know how to do this anymore because you're a grownup, you know, and you, I don't know how to do this. Your book does a great job. love the language. feels so tangible. feels like something I can take and go implement. So I do, I want to say that because it was great for that. I love the language you use and

Um, but in that, want to say the things that in working with parents, the protests are the things, the questions that come to my mind are, what do you mean by play? Am I, am I getting out? Ooh, no. And you know, so, so I'd like to hear a little bit about what you're taught, what kind of play you're talking about. And, um, and which I think Phil then jumps into what if I really don't like that as a parent? What if I don't feel like I can go there with my child? Yeah, good.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (11:59.372)
Mm-hmm.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (12:2.986)
Yeah, yeah, those two things are really important to think about because most of the parents that I talked to, and I've worked with a lot of parents over the years, and we've been teaching these, we call them the play strong strategies in the book that you so kindly complimented how easy it is to just start flipping through the pages and see, oh, there's pictures that go with really simple steps.

Kyle And Sara Wester (12:25.347)
Wow.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (12:25.386)
And they've kind of broken this down in a much easier guide than trying to read the IKEA, you know, bookshelf building instructions, but it's really sort of clearly laid out so that what we're trying to do is help, especially parents that are busy, that are exhausted, that have kids that, you know, they're like, I need to talk to my kid about, you know, why they're not.
You know, come into dinner when I call them or I need to talk to my kid about how much anxiety that they're having about school and friendships right now. Like parents have a lot of worries about their kids, a lot of anxiety these days about how their kids are doing. Play can be another way of addressing some of those emotional things that pop up with our children as well as maybe even heading off and preventing some of these behaviors that we have to spend a lot of time managing.

that play can be an ounce of prevention against some of the things that parents find so hard. So when parents say, should I care about play? And I don't really enjoy it. So how can your book help me? I think those are the things that I really want them to know. And the truth is, in all the parents that I've worked with and taught this stuff, most of them don't enjoy play. And even me with my own son,

when I'm busy and I'm working a lot and I'm like, I've got a million other things on my mind, if he comes up to me with a couple of magnetiles and he's like, mom, you have to see this. And I'm like, I don't really care right now. It's so hard to just make that switch and get in the mode of like, yeah, yes, I want to spend 15 minutes on magnetiles, that sort of thing. So yes, I totally understand.

Kyle And Sara Wester (13:59.144)
Yes. Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (14:14.134)
that parents find it hard to make that switch and transition in to kids play, even if it's just for a few minutes at a time. I want them to know there's so many more benefits. There's like all of these really special things that can come out of it and that it's probably gonna help you as a parent to tap into this other language of kids and that you don't have to do it all day long, but just for little snippets of time. Your other question was,

And I'll just answer it really quickly, much more quickly. What kind of play are we talking about here? And we really want it to be led by your kids. So, and it doesn't have to be led by your kid. You could, you know, find things that you enjoy together. It could be cooking, it could be gardening, could be riding bikes together. could be, you know, it really helps if we can choose things to do together that we both kind of like anyway. Like Kyle, if you like Play-Doh, then maybe, then Play-Doh would be the thing, right?

But our kids are coming to us all the time saying, look mom or check this out dad. It's the things that they initiate and it's their sort of child led interests that often can be the sort of window in. And so we just wanna help parents see those as opportunities to connect and to unlock some of the powers of what play can offer your family.

Kyle And Sara Wester (15:33.784)
Well, and if I could tie into that, I'm thinking of, know, Sarah and I would be intentional about spending time with the kids individually and asking them what they want to do, because we knew this was important. And I remember one of my fears was when my son was maybe three or four, he loved playing cars. And although cars can be fun, I'm kind of out after about 10 minutes, but he would, he would be like, I'd say, Hey, Brendan, we have an hour. What do you want to do? And he's like, play cars. And I'd be like, what else? And he'd say,

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (15:55.200)
Yeah. Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (16:1.420)
Mm-mm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:3.916)
That's it. You want to play cars for an hour. And so I remember having this aha moment, just watching him play and how happy he was. Like he was, he would rather be nowhere else in the world than with me right there playing cars and the conviction I felt that I wanted to be so many other places. And I kind of thought to myself, what is, what is going on in my head?

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (16:25.014)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:30.498)
that my son thinks it's amazing. It's like heaven hanging out with me playing cars. And I'm like, no, doing that thing in the yard, I need to get that done. Or I need to like do that thing in the garage. Why can't I? And maybe there's some healing happening here that maybe that didn't happen with me as a kid. Maybe nobody sat with me for an hour and played cars. And so maybe there's something my son is inviting me into to saying, hey dad,

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (16:48.770)
Hmm.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (16:55.500)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:56.834)
hang for an hour, it's okay, that other stuff will get done. But this is more important. And I never forgot that moment and I thought, I want to have a proper perspective that this is why I had kids. could do these kind of things and to really share these moments with him and not try to escape them for something I think is better.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (17:0.182)
Yeah. Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (17:7.106)
Hmm.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (17:13.035)
Yes.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (17:16.599)
Yeah.
Yeah. And think about how healing it can be for a parent to feel that. I mean, and maybe we come from families and cultures where adults don't play with kids. They have important work to do and the kids should play with each other and play with the neighborhood kids and play with other kids at school and things like that. And that's good too. Kids should have all sorts of play in their lives and, you know, more of it. But for those parents who feel like that was a need that didn't get

met or maybe they're rediscovering play through their child's eyes. I think it's really nice to be our most creative selves in a sense of flow with our kids just for a little bit because you can really see that so much is blossoming and there's a real potential here for kids and they're getting their ideas going and sharing those ideas with you and what lights them up.
It's just amazing to see how excited they get about this. And that can be a little contagious. feels like, if parents learn to enjoy it just a tiny bit more, just a smidge, you don't have to say, I love playing with my kids, it's all I wanna do. That may be pushing it a little too far. But just to be able to see these glimmers for our kids as being able to, I don't know, rejuvenate or reconnect with something from our own childlike selves.

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:33.410)
Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (18:44.948)
I find parents sort of come away feeling like, oh, I feel a little bit changed in that experience too, for my child and for me. So that can be, I'm glad you shared that. Thanks for that, Kyle. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:59.012)
Yeah, I one thing I've loved about play is just that window into their world. Like you were saying, what lights them up and each child being so different. And sometimes I know it's hard for kids to sit down to say, mom, I'm feeling this or I'm stressed about this, or I'm trying to process this event that happened. And I love how

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (19:3.970)
No.

Kyle And Sara Wester (19:19.342)
play has given me a window in their language to say, oh, I mean, they've got something going on here and they're working it out and they're trying to make sense of it. And I can be a part of that because I want to be a part of it and trying to ask them to sit with me and have this lengthy conversation about this stress or whatever it might be. That's not a children's, that's not the way children handle things.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (19:38.306)
Mm.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (19:42.176)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (19:42.230)
And so this was going into that world, but as a parent, it encouraged me because I felt like, okay, I've got a window, right? I've got a window into what's going on with you. Now, when, um, I've worked with other families, I would love to hear your thoughts on this because then what if you look in that window or you get access and you find out there.
playing death or violence or you know, this thing rises up in you as a parent. Oh no, do I need to be worried about this? Why is their character playing this out? You know, this scary thing and as parents, you know, you're, you know, that can can raise some anxiety, some worries. Do when am I, do I need to be worried about this?

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (20:20.033)
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that you brought that up, Sarah, because sometimes it feels like we want to open this window to our child and their minds and understand what's going on in there. But then once the window's open, it's like, nope, shut it back up. I don't think I wanted to see all of that. Exactly. For most parents, when we play, it's probably not going to go.

Kyle And Sara Wester (20:38.318)
Yeah, yeah, I don't want to see it. I'm sorry I asked. I'm sorry I asked. Don't feel that way. Don't feel that way.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (20:51.136)
that deep, right? It's going to be like, you know, I've got these action guys and this one's going to slide down here and this one's going to go over here and it's trying to catch the other one and that one's going to put the other one in jail. You know what I mean? Most of the time, it's just going to be your child's basic way of like relating to what's going on in life, what's in their world, how are friends getting along, what's going on with sibling, you know what I mean? Like they're putting, they're infusing the stories that they tell and plays in

Kyle And Sara Wester (20:58.113)
Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (21:19.118)
place to share stories, right? We know that stories tap into memories and that the relationships that we build with our kids are built on these experiences that we share. So play is just one of those experiences. But when you see your child playing something and they start getting a little aggressive in their play or they're exploring something like one of these deep, you know, mythical big questions in life, like what happens after we die or.
or something like that, it starts to take on a little bit of it, almost like an existential tone or something. You know, I encourage parents that the strategies that we've written in the way of play are all coming from a place of if you have some basic tools for how to read those moments, how to respond to your child, and you're the one that's sort of, I'm the container, I'm the holder of this stuff.

Kyle And Sara Wester (21:51.768)
Mm-hmm.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (22:15.314)
And if I have just some basic advice from people who've been doing this for a while, maybe it would be helpful in knowing how to handle the death theme that came out suddenly or the kid that just takes two dinosaurs and they're just banging each other on the head. And it seems really aggressive. And it's like, is this ever going to end? Am I encouraging this kind of aggressiveness by just playing this with my kid? You don't have to. if

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:32.492)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (22:43.522)
it's a nice segue to start talking about a couple of the strategies and sharing a couple of those things. I'd love parents to walk away with a couple of tools from this conversation too. Yeah. Great.

Kyle And Sara Wester (22:50.914)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Sorry. thought you were about to talk. No. Okay. So, um, if I want to, if I like, what's a good starting point, if this is sort of new and there, and you're going, okay, all right. I love it. How do I get started? What's a good place? You said I don't need to do this for five hours a day. What does it just look like if I'm beginning?

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (23:12.993)
Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (23:16.768)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (23:21.080)
Yeah, like, yeah, be intentional. Yeah, they're saying I hear plays important. I've heard that a lot. How do I start implementing that today? Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (23:21.452)
So.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (23:27.968)
Yes. Yeah. So I talked to Tina about this a lot. Like, what's the best way to what's the first thing that we can give parents to get started? And we actually wrote it into the first chapter of the book. So as soon as you start flipping through the pages, you'll see like the first two things that I think parents could start doing right now today that would help them be able to, you know, be able to connect through play with their kids.
and be able to share those moments and know a little bit more about what they can do if your kid is just coming up to you saying, look, mom, you've got to see this thing. And I think it can also help parents handle a little better those moments where we see things coming out as you were just alluding to. Like, what about those times when my kid's playing in ways that makes me a little like concerned or brings up a question for me as a parent too. So the first strategy is called think out loud. And it's amazing because it's so simple.

Kyle And Sara Wester (24:10.840)
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
Yep.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (24:24.598)
but it does so much. And the beauty of having this book with Tina, with writing the book with Tina, is that she also knows how to share with parents, like all the stuff that's happening at a brain level when you're doing this stuff with your kids too. Think Out Loud is just saying what you see when your kid is playing. So they might have two dinosaurs that are coming to each other and one's a meat-eating dinosaur and the other's a plant-eating dinosaur.
and they are, know, obviously what's going to happen when you bring those two dinosaurs together. Well, one's probably going to be predator, one's going to be prey, and then they're going to go, you know, there's going to be a chase or a fight or something, right? So all you have to do is to just sort of narrate or say something that taps into what your child might be thinking in that moment.

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:1.538)
Yep. Yep.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (25:16.828)
And what we're really doing is using the power of mind sight, which Dan Siegel has written about. It's kind of teaching our kids how to reflect on what two people are doing, what two dinosaurs are doing, how they're solving problems together. But what we're doing as parents is really tapping into this process of like, the vertical integration that's happening between these automatic like,

then the dinosaur just eats the other dinosaur, right? It's kind of a boom. This is what's happening with a sort of thoughtful, more mindful set of responses that your child can use from their upstairs brain down. So you're actually teaching your child how to be more mindful. You're teaching your child how to express themselves in words when you think out loud with them and you say,

The meat eating dinosaur has a really hungry expression on their face and they're getting closer and closer to the plant eater. You I wonder what's going to happen next. So you're speaking your child's thoughts out loud. Your child also might be wondering this. Your child also might be, you know, planning out what's going to happen. And we're really building in a lot of executive ability, these higher level abilities that take a really long time for kids to figure out. Like we can do that.

on a moment by moment basis while they play. And I've seen kids actually turn around and like the five-year-old who's playing, you know, building a ramp on the table, the two-year-old sister comes in the room and they're like gonna, you know, go for the jugular because they know the two-year-old is gonna come in and like try and break their block tower down. I have actually seen kids go, no, hang on, I'm building a ramp right now. So you can't touch what I'm building. Like they can actually slow themselves down.

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:7.138)
Mmm, nice. Yeah, yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (27:12.202)
and stay calm and use their words. And I'm like, this is incredible. Just thinking out loud with your kid while they play can do so much more than just playing. And often the strategies you'll find, and we talk in the book about how a simple strategy for playing with your child can also teach your child so much at the same time, the building in these skills and the awareness of their own mind and somebody else's mind. So that's just the first strategy, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:16.965)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:21.165)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:30.392)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:36.262)
I don't remember. Yeah, I don't, I don't remember if your book said this. I think the reason why I use that strategy is also so I don't get bored. So it's like the, think doing the think ally keeps me present. It keeps me focused. It keeps me like, okay, Kyle, stay in this, you know, don't start thinking about your to-do list or wondering what's happening on that sports game or whatever it might be. That's distracting me. So I find the thinking out loud.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (27:45.098)
off

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (27:49.034)
Yes. Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (27:54.903)
you

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (27:59.168)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (28:3.188)
it helps me like actually stay in my prefrontal cortex and be like, you're here to connect. So like doing that. I found it kind of gives me boundaries. So that's what lots of times when I'm talking to parents about it, I'm like, if you're having a hard time checking out, just do this, you know, because then you're, you're not just your present. Yeah, you're not this like observer that's not involved, but instead like you're watching them play. And maybe that's all the kid wants you to do is just notice them why they're playing.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (28:18.048)
Yes.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (28:22.700)
Yeah. Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (28:29.078)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (28:29.856)
And you know you might fall asleep if you don't actually talk. So use your words and describe what you see them doing. And you'll see the kids sometimes doesn't even, they're like, oh, that's so neat. Yeah, I didn't think of it that way. Or I'm glad you said it. So that they know that you are involved in that moment and not just like a warm body in the room.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (28:38.593)
Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (28:47.616)
Yeah. Yeah. And you know how Tina and Dan talk about the name it to tame it strategy in the whole brain child, that if we name what's going on it for our child, what they're feeling or what their intentions might be, that we actually connect with them on a mind to mind level, that the parts of our brain that reflect and slow down and can stay calm in these situations are the same parts of the brain that we want to light up in our kid.
And when we do it when they're just relaxed and enjoying themselves, there's no pressure on them while they're playing. They get a lot of reps. Reps are really good for brain development. So they get so many more reps. If we're just playing for a stretch of five minutes, think about how many repetitions of practice you can get before they have to gear up for the big event when the sibling is gonna come in the room and they're gonna wanna play too. And they're really gonna have to sometimes manage the big feelings that bubble up.

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:22.402)
Yep, Mmm, yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:33.346)
Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (29:46.028)
from down below, from the bottom up. And that takes me into the second strategy actually, which is Kyle, you're talking about how do we stay focused? How do we stay present? How do we communicate to our kids that we really get them, that we really understand them? The second strategy is called making yourself a mirror. And there are actually these really cool neurons in the brain that have gotten a lot of attention in the last 10, 15 years called mirror neurons.

Kyle And Sara Wester (29:56.418)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (30:6.542)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (30:13.038)
Mm-hmm.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (30:13.450)
where if we can mirror something or if we're, whether we're consciously doing it or unconsciously doing it, because a lot of this is unconscious, we're wired to connect with each other. So we often don't even have to think about this when we're playing with our kids or just being with our kids. We just do it naturally because we're close already in our attachments. But when your kid is playing something, just simply mirror something in their body, face or voice, their B, F or their V.

And that takes it out of just the verbal arena. Like, you're not just saying what you see or thinking out loud. You're now mirroring some element of like what they might be feeling or what the characters in their play might be feeling. Even if it's cars on the floor or something, you're going, you know, for a little kid, don't do that for a big kid because a big kid is going to look at you and sort of go, what the heck are you doing? Right.

Kyle And Sara Wester (30:46.616)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:2.114)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:8.413)
What is wrong with you? Are you mocking me? Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (31:12.322)
So you have to be a little bit more sophisticated with your older kid. Let's say you're, I mean, my kid's 10. So if I just went like, push, push, he's gonna look at me like, okay, that's baby play. That's not the way that a boy like me is gonna play. So you have to kind of think about what am I trying to capture here? What is the emotional quality, let's say, of what he's doing?
And so much is happening when we light up those mirror neurons when we play in that way with using mirroring. So it communicates to our kids, I really see what you mean right now, which is everything when it comes to parenting, right? That's the kind of empathy that we want to teach our kids as well. If you can look at and be able to read.

Kyle And Sara Wester (31:54.934)
Yes.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (32:5.024)
what's happening non-verbally. And so much of what our kids communicate is non-verbal anyway, right? Like they come in the room and they're like, you know, and you're going, what's going on, buddy? You you have to read between the lines. so being able to do this for our kids when they play does teach. It does share kind of a sense of I understand what is happening for you. I see you. I get you on this deeper level.

Kyle And Sara Wester (32:9.742)
Mm-hmm.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (32:34.166)
And it's the simplest thing in the world just to mirror your kid. If they're bouncing on a trampoline, you're just going boing, boing, boing, you know, along with them. But so many other things are being communicated in that way, in doing that. And kids will also say, when you combine these two things, when you're thinking out loud and you're making yourself a mirror at the same time, kids will stop and turn to parents. I've seen it happen. Parents just learn how to do these two things.

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:1.389)
Mm-hmm.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (33:4.098)
kids will stop and they'll be like, how did you get so good at this all of a sudden? Like you really, like you're really in this. And so Kyle, when you say, how do I stay focused? How do I stay present? How do I make it look like I know what I'm doing? If we don't want our kids to look at us and kind of go, oh, you're really bad at this or you're getting it wrong. That's not what a wicked witch sounds like when she cackles or whatever. Cause a lot of times parents say,

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:11.277)
Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (33:29.216)
My kids critical of me. They don't think I'm a very good player and that doesn't feel good as well. That's not like reinforcing of a parent who wants to keep playing. But when your kid turns to you and goes, wow, that was really, that was really good. How often do we get complimented by our kids? That feels really fulfilling, doesn't it?

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:30.508)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:36.280)
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (33:45.987)
Yeah. Well, what I like about all that you're saying there too is I think about these parents who, know, in this world, unfortunately, we're just way too busy. We're way too overbooked. was just go, go, go, you know, and so that's why I think a lot of play goes to the wayside because we really don't have time for it. And so I think we all can relate to that because it's not even like that. Go, go, go is bad. It's lots of times we're doing it to try to help our kids and try to teach them skills or get them coaching or whatever it is. Right.
But what I love what your book's doing and what you're saying now, even with these couple of techniques you've shown, is if you really want to maximize the play, don't just get away from it and say, yeah, we don't have time for that. Like do it, but do it with purpose. Do it intentionally, because then what you're doing, like it's just backed up by the brain science and by all the research. You're definitely connecting. So you're definitely going to deepen the connection with your kid. But even more important, you're learning how to speak their language.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (34:28.662)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (34:43.264)
And if you get to, if you do that intentionally in those early years, it makes the teenage years awesome because then you know how to understand them and you know how to speak to them about things that are very serious and maybe even more scary or bigger choices they've got to make in life because it's like you, earned it. You earned it through all of those moments on the ground or playing that game because they know you get it because you didn't learn how to play well. Now I'll invite you in.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (35:8.672)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (35:12.738)
to this thing called finding out who I am. I'll let you be a part of that discussion.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (35:15.092)
Yes. Yes, that's amazing. I mean, it just reminds me of something Tina says that is that the brain on play is a brain that experiences safety, right? Safety with the other person, even the other person that you're playing with, right? We're kind of on the same wavelength here. And you're understanding me on this deeper level that doesn't always happen when we're rushing from place to place and I've got to go to soccer practice and it's time to get up and put my shoes on and go to school.

kind of thing. But if we're already investing this time with our kids where they know that we beyond a shadow of a doubt, we're going to try our best to understand and get you. And they know that even in their play, then you can't have a parent or a child that's in a state of play that also feels like they're under threat at the same time. If we can turn to our kids, you know,

Kyle And Sara Wester (36:9.154)
Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (36:13.226)
If you need your kid to like bring their dishes, you know, from the table to the sink and you decide you're going to dance from the, you know, you're going to dance from the table to the, to the sink together as you bring the dishes in and see if you can balance all of them and things like that, then your kid knows that you're not going to turn to them with like a really angry face. And, you know, they know that if my parent is smiling at me, if my parent can still be silly.

then I'm not in major trouble. Things are gonna be okay between us. And they might even be more motivated to bring those dirty dishes in when you ask them to. So play can also be something we turn to when we're not feeling all that playful. We may be a little upset with our kids or a little frustrated or something. And at the same time, we can still turn to them and show them, you don't have to be afraid that I'm...

Kyle And Sara Wester (36:50.158)
100%. Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (37:7.690)
mad at you because I'm turning to you and pretending to be a mad mommy instead of really being the mad mommy, which is something that I do with my son. He'll be like, oh, do the mad mommy thing when he's done something that I obviously didn't want him to do. And I'll be like, that's it. I've told you a hundred times and I can't believe I have to repeat myself again. Oh, and I'll just stomp around the room and he'll be like, okay, mom, I'll do the thing.

Kyle And Sara Wester (37:14.298)
Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yes. I know. I love it. I love it. Yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (37:32.158)
Yeah, we, we, we, since we both have worked with kids, we would a lot of times act like we were calling DHS or something like that because like our daughter would goofing around and being kind of like rough with the baby and say, Whoa, you're being kind did you shake that baby? Like, okay, we're going to need to make a call. So like joke about these things. had, we had seen Annie when, my daughter was young, she saw Annie and Ms. Hannigan and Annie is horrible. She just screams at all the kids and they have

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (37:39.234)
You

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (37:48.014)
Yes. Yes.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (37:59.647)
Yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (38:0.334)
So I would do that a lot with my kids when it was time to clean up. I would play Miss Hannigan and just scream at them all, like, got to get this cleaning done. And of course they're laughing and they're also cleaning and it was a way to keep it light. I love the rewarding thing for me as a parent when I play with my kids, like you said, even if it's five minutes.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (38:3.886)
Ah, you would be Miss Hannigan, yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (38:9.506)
Yes.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (38:14.113)
Yes.

Kyle And Sara Wester (38:24.096)
that attunement to what's going on inside of them. You just see it in their eyes and in their face when they look at you and they're like, Oh, you see me, you understand. And, and, Oh, you can feel the connection and it's so rewarding for the effort. Cause I think it is, it's hard. know there are days I have to very intentionally step into a place of play because my to-do list in my head,

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (38:46.604)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (38:49.428)
is winning. It's the thing I need to do. And the, they're very real adult life things. But then when I step into that, that moment, it's, it just always gives back to me. You know, it gives to my kid, but it gives back to me. And I imagine you, and I was kind of curious, what do parents who've made the, who've done this and your book is full of really great tips, but what do you hear as, feedback from parents who have.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (39:4.983)
Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (39:14.049)
Mm-hmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (39:19.307)
stepped into this.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (39:21.184)
I think the main thing is that they just say play isn't just something I do when my kid wants to hang out for a few minutes or when they get home from school and they've had a really hard day and they just want to be, you know, they want to do something mindless and just, you know, be in the backyard together for a few minutes or whip up some cupcakes or something. Play becomes really our way of being with our kids. It doesn't mean that we have to be playful all the time.

Kyle And Sara Wester (39:30.786)
Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (39:51.446)
But when we do this stuff and we have repeated experiences together, it's almost like the dose of creativity and connection that we need on a daily basis to really embody this way of being between ourselves and our kids, even our partners. When I think, you know, I take more of a playful stance with my partner, suddenly I find that I feel lighter about things, even if...
It does feel like the world is crumbling around us sometimes and the stress is so heavy. The other thing that parents will say is, I thought that when you started teaching me this stuff that it meant that I had to like, you know, do a puppet show to get my kids to put their shoes on or something. And we're certainly not saying, you know, you have to.

Kyle And Sara Wester (40:22.491)
Yeah, yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (40:44.002)
play for like 20 minutes and they still won't get their shoes on, they still won't get in the car, they still won't do the thing. And now you've like derailed the whole afternoon or the structure of the day because you're playing instead of doing the serious stuff. What I find is that kids are just way more motivated to do things for a parent who approaches them with a sort of, you know, there's a little bit of a gleam in the eye that happens, right? You know what I mean? Like, like you're

Kyle And Sara Wester (41:8.760)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah, that's right. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (41:13.918)
eyes are a little bit more gleaming for your child when you approach them and you're looking for the best and you have already built this relationship around the times that you spend when you're really not doing all that much together other than just enjoying their presence. I think that that actually, parents say it actually prevents a lot of the meltdowns and the breakdowns that would have normally occurred or it makes them a little bit easier to manage and deal with.

Kyle And Sara Wester (41:26.060)
Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (41:43.238)
When your kids were little, when they had tantrums, did you ever notice that they had these big feelings and then the tears start to dry up a little bit? Like they're starting to collect themselves and they're sniffling instead of, you know, out and out balling. And they're starting to, their shoulders are kind of settling a little bit. Like often with my son, I would use that as an opportunity not to distract him back into doing the thing that I wanted him to do.
but I'd be like, oh my God, did you just see that? Oh my gosh, there was a squirrel out the window and it was looking to check if you were okay, right? And my son is then all of a sudden, you know, three or four year old, he's like, what squirrel, you know? And so suddenly I'm like, the squirrel wants to know if you're okay, I wanna know if you're okay. And so we're not using the play to distract from feelings, but.

Kyle And Sara Wester (42:22.594)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (42:34.266)
Yes. Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (42:37.762)
Play is something that we can use to get back to normal again too and help them know that feelings are survivable.

Kyle And Sara Wester (42:41.238)
Yeah. yeah. Yes. love that point. Yeah. Yeah. What makes me think too, lots of times when the kids would have a hard time going to sleep, I would say, Hey, you're right. We shouldn't go to bed until we say good night to the moon and the stars. So then I said, let's go outside and do it. So I pick them up and go out there. Good night, moon. Good night. Hey, look at that neighbor. Let's say good night to that neighbor. And so we would, and then eventually they'd be like, Oh, look, everybody's going to bed and let's, know, and instead before we'd been doing that, I would just get frustrated.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (42:46.946)
Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (42:59.585)
Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (43:4.512)
Yeah. Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (43:10.850)
Hmm.

Kyle And Sara Wester (43:10.958)
just go to bed, why are we still talking about this? And so when I was able to be more playful, I was able to let go of the tension and that actually helped the kid let go of their tension and therefore then we were all able to go to sleep. well, Georgie, I wanna say thank you so much for all of this wisdom and insight. know we are very passionate about play and we, like you, have seen it change families' lives and marriages when they were all able to just.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (43:13.482)
Yes. Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (43:20.994)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.

Kyle And Sara Wester (43:38.742)
let go of all that stress and overwhelm just even for a few minutes. mean, hopefully it's longer and longer, but to just like embrace the creativity of play that our kids want us to engage in, you know? So really want to point all the listeners to your book, The Way of Play, but tell me how could they find out more about what you're doing? How can they connect to your work?

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (43:51.361)
Yeah.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (44:0.192)
Well, you can follow me on Instagram at Georgie Wissend-Vincent or we have so many resources for families on our website. It's at PlayStrongInstitute.com. There's a whole page dedicated to the book. You can go on and peruse and learn even more about it before you buy. We'd love people to find it on Amazon or any other places where books are sold. But come to our website and check us out that way at
playstronginstitute.com and you'll be able to learn so much more about all the good work we're doing at the Play Strong Institute, which is where Tina and I developed all these great concepts that went into the way of play.

Kyle And Sara Wester (44:40.546)
That's so great. So go check it out and thank you again for being our guest. Thank you.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (44:44.246)
Thank you so much. You all are obviously wonderful players already and have done so much in digging into play with your own kids. The stories that you've told have been really like, you know, it's just love for me. And some parents will feel really validated by reading the book and others might have a lot that they'd love to start sharing with their family.

Kyle And Sara Wester (45:6.082)
Yeah, I agree. mean, that's what we love about the name of the podcast too is art of raising humans is we want it to be an understanding that it is a creative art form to raise kids and play as one of those integral parts of how you're going to do that. so we appreciate it. And thank you. know a lot's been going on in California too, with all the wildfires and stuff. So we really appreciate you too, making time for it through all that chaos. So that's right.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (45:25.590)
Yes.

Georgie Wisen-Vincent (45:29.458)
Yes, thank you. We need to play more than ever right now, I think, for kids recovery and healing from what we're going through in SoCal. Thank you. Okay, bye.

Kyle And Sara Wester (45:36.706)
Yeah, okay. Thank you. Bye bye.