Episode 154

Kyle And Sara Wester (0:1.230)

Hello and welcome to the Art of Raising Humans. I'm Kyle. Hi there. I'm Sarah. And today, Sarah, we wanted to discuss probably one of the biggest questions that we had going into our parenting journey. Yeah, it was a big shift for us, an unexpected big shift. Yeah, because it's kind of like a lot of things in life when you're growing up, you assume things are just a certain way. And really, lots of that's due to just your limited experience with other ways of seeing things, you know? And I know there was key moments in our experience where

this question started popping up and we started going, wow, I think I could imagine parenting in a different way. Yeah. Yeah. I would say, started out definitely feeling a big challenge to a belief system I held very strongly. And then it took a while to shift it. Yeah. So that question is, can we discipline our kids without punishment? we thought, man, we've kind of hit this at different angles and different podcasts, but we've never.

hit it directly at that question. But that is at the, think under almost every question we hear from parents when we're talking about parenting in a different way, you know, is there assuming many times that we are punishing our kids and that that has to do with discipline and we're saying we don't punish our kids and yet we still are disciplining our kids. Yeah. Yeah. I remember sitting, um, I was at work.

And I worked with children and this was in my face all the time. And you know, when something first comes into your mind, you, kind of push it out immediately because it goes so against your belief system. And then it just kept coming up for me. And I remember a time sitting at my desk and just thinking, is this possible? I mean, I'm just going to entertain the idea that maybe this could be possible. Yeah. What could be possible? What was it you were thinking about? raise children.

into grown adults who were healthy, happy, connected, successful, not in jail. All of the fears that pop up. All those things have good relationship without punishment. Well, in many of those fears, that's what we heard. Lots of times I might've even said it. If you don't punish your kids, then they'll someday go to jail. They'll be in prison. At the very least, they're gonna be disrespectful. They're gonna run you over. They will...

 

Kyle And Sara Wester (2:25.388)

Just get into drugs, get into all types of stuff. just be people you don't want to be around. People that teachers don't want in their classroom. People that they don't want your kids on their soccer team, all that kind of stuff. Unless you're punishing them, then kids are out of control. Yeah, you can't just let people get away with stuff. So I think the first step for us, that was the big aha moment that many of our listeners have heard us say before, is just taking apart the word discipline.

that I know in our culture, sometimes we like to interchange words to mean the same thing when they don't mean the same thing. And I think once you understand that discipline isn't punishment, you'll hear how people use it all the time to mean the exact same thing. When really the root word of discipline is disciple. And discipling is something you do with somebody. It's something you teach or you guide them. It's not something you do to hurt them. Yeah, it's a journey you take with them and it's teaching.

Punishment just to know that those two things are separate and mean two different things I think is really important part of the process to go. Oh wait, I thought those those things had to be together Yeah, know and just to realize that those are two different things It was it was a big stepping stone or a part of the process just to pull those apart because then we can analyze them separately Yeah, and think about them separately

and make a path forward for ourselves and our families. Yeah, and I think the whole point of this particular episode that we want to accomplish is just to help our listeners kind of expand their imagination that I'm assuming many of them are just like us, that we didn't even have, I couldn't imagine a family that did not use punishment. I'd never seen it.

I'd never heard of it. mean, weird enough, I'd seen it on TV. Like I've seen a lot of different families on TV that looked like healthy families, but of course I knew it was fake. was, it was TV. So I didn't actually think that could happen. I thought obviously it was just writers writing that, you know? But in my mind, I had no picture. We had no role models in the sense. So it was very foreign to even think that because we'd never seen it. Yeah. And I think, you know, giving credit to all the parents out there. mean, it was,

 

Kyle And Sara Wester (4:40.824)

There was even some people, scientists and therapists and teachers and I mean, from all fields sort of looking at thinking, okay, okay, how can we do this the best way? And it was, it believed to be a cornerstone of raising a healthy child. So well intentioned, this is a part of it. How can we do this? Well, and so to disrupt that and think, wait, maybe it's not a cornerstone is sort of a shock. And it takes.

It takes a while or at least it took me a while to process through that and then to begin to imagine something different. you remember the moment where you started to make, cause I remember the moment. clearly remember this moment. I was an elementary school counselor and you and I had talked a little bit about moving away from, know, when we have kids, we don't want to spank. Maybe we'd have those conversations. I still assumed we would do that. Or if we didn't do that, we would definitely do timeouts.

And if we did that, we're definitely going to do groundings and those other types of methods. were a little on two different pages, which you can listen to other podcasts here about that. But yeah, I had kind of started down that I think a big key moment for me was working with children. worked with a lot of children and they couldn't be punished. So I won't go into it, but because of different traumas and things in their background and where I was at, I needed to help these kids who were having a lot of behavior problems, a lot. mean, the

biggest things getting kicked out of places and I had to find a different way. And that punishment was a big to me cornerstone. So to imagine it and then to see it actually working, to see punishment off the table and yet see these relationships growing, these children flourishing, things changing in their lives. It just honestly kind of blew my mind. I looked at it I thought, this is so beautiful. How can this be? Yeah. Well, in my moment was I went to

a conference as an elementary school counselor. And there was a professor there from a really prestigious school talking about kids and child development. And she made a comment, something about how she doesn't spank her kids or something like that, or a question came up about spanking and she looked confused. Like, why would you do that? Why would you spank a kid? And so I was like, surely she spanks her kids. So I mean, I really couldn't imagine. It's almost like sometimes when I did drug and alcohol counseling, Sarah, there'd be these

 

Kyle And Sara Wester (6:56.910)

people who've been using drugs or they grew up in families where they smoke pot all the time. And they really thought every family drank alcohol and smoked pot. And they couldn't imagine there be even though I showed them the stats that actually the vast majority of people don't drink alcohol and smoke pot. It just seemed like everybody did. So I assumed that was the case. But we had a conversation afterwards where she was telling me that she doesn't even know any families near her friends who do that and haven't done that for a long time. was like, what is happening? What strange world do you live in where kids aren't being spanked or punished?

for the bad behavior they're doing. Yeah. And now we know that's actually a lot of places. Yes, I know. it wasn't your reality. Yeah. But there actually are places. Well, and then I think what also helped expand our imagination, I'm sure the listeners have experienced this is as a school counselor, I met some teachers who those teachers, some of the best teachers I got to interact with were ones that didn't feel the need to punish the kids. They really were discipling their students. And what I noticed is those kids

hardly ever came to my office because those kids, the problems and the conflicts that were happening, the teacher was working together with those kids to resolve those conflicts. And then also with our kids being in sports, and I'm sure every listener has had a kid in extracurricular activities, you've experienced teachers or coaches in those areas where some are very punitive and some just aren't. And then you've also experienced other ones who are completely permissive and just chaos is happening. But that's where we thought...

if you weren't doing the one, if you weren't being that controlling, authoritarian teacher, then you're just a teacher who everything is going crazy. And that does happen. There's teachers who have a guy or parents where it's going crazy. And so we thought we had to be in one of those two situations. Yes. Yeah. It was this or that. and cause we had seen both, we had seen just chaos and then we had seen, but this is the other, this is what you've got to do to create a, um,

environment that is successful and disciplined and all those things that you know that make a great environment that everyone can enjoy. Well we do run into a lot of parents who want to move away from that authoritarian and they'll try to move into a different way and they they can sometimes start leaning into that permissive and that's even where terms like gentle parenting and those kind of things can get a bad rap yeah can get a bad rap because they're just being lumped into what lots of parents think is the only other alternative.

 

Kyle And Sara Wester (9:17.752)

That if you're not controlling the kids and the kids are controlling you or the kids are demanding you do what they want. And if you're in that place and I have felt like this before, okay, my tools were just taken away. You know, if I'm not doing timeouts, if I'm not taking away things, if I'm not doing that, then okay, I'm going to set that down. Okay. I'm going to buy into that. Now I've got nothing. And so that can naturally lead you down this path of permissiveness. Cause you don't know.

you haven't seen something else or you don't know something else. And you know, so it's really easy for us to get there when we're changing how we do things in life. Yeah. Because we don't have another alternative. And that's what I hope in this podcast, what we want to do today is just being able to show there is another alternative and that we're not saying you just get run over. No way. mean, that's not, didn't, that's what I was afraid of. I did not want that in my parenting. And I definitely wanted kids who, who, when they came into a place, it was better because they were there. You know, I wanted teachers.

to enjoy our kids. wanted coaches to be happy that our kids were on their team, right? That was a high expectation we had of our kids. And I am our experience we'd only seen one way or the other. And I want them to be able to understand there is another option. Okay, so it doesn't, you don't have to be authoritarian or permissive. Now I do want to address that word punishment. The reason why we don't use punishment is it will get into kind of the outcomes of it. But the in our culture in general, punishment is used.

Punishment is used in a legal system. So we all believe that the criminal system should punish criminals. Tickets for speeding. Yes, yeah, all those kind of things. Or like you kill somebody, you go to jail, or you rob somebody. We want these things, right? So we see those as necessary, and we go, look, that's how you deal with bad behavior. But what I want to present to the listeners is the criminal system uses that because they lack something you have, which is relationship.

Like you have a connection with your child that the court system will never have. And I also want you to the court system actually isn't trying to accomplish what I think you want to accomplish, which the court system isn't trying to teach people better behavior. They're just trying to scare them from doing the behavior that was criminal. And they know that the criminal system, if you spend much time in it or have spent much time in it, they realize that it is a poor deterrent. It can be a deterrent to

 

Kyle And Sara Wester (11:45.774)

but it's not actually, know, there's all kinds of conversations about, it's, well, it's not really teaching them how to, you know, let's say they steal because they were raised in whatever the situation is, they're desperate. Sticking them in jail for that doesn't actually teach them or present an option other than stealing, right? It just is just what it is, a punishment for doing that. And I think that also helped expand my imagination, my openness to doing something else.

because when I did drug and alcohol counseling for many years, I saw a lot of these people coming out of jail and prison and they weren't taught how to get off substances. They weren't taught how to go get a job and make a career. That wasn't what their skills or whatever they're substances for or dealing with the trauma that they were trying to deal with that got them there. Right. So all those things, the court and I don't, I don't know if the court system could ever do that. Right. So I'm not even, we're not talking about what they should have, not do. We just know that that's part of

you're thinking as a parent is that is what we see being used to deter bad behavior. So, okay, maybe I do want to teach better behavior, but I at least want to deter it. So that's where we're going to get into punishment. So when we talk about punishment, we're talking about simple things from it could be yelling, it could be threats, you know, it could be spankings, it could be timeouts, it could be grounding.

It could be constant use of consequences. Yeah, loss of privileges. Well, we're going to take that. Take screen time away. Take your phone away. So all these things that we're lumping into punishments are things that parents are well intentionally. I mean, they're doing it, I believe, because they love their kid and they're trying to help their kid do better. So they're saying, we're going to do this to you. And that's typically the key. That's how I know you and I are somewhat slipping into a punitive type mindset is I'm going to think I need to do something to you.

to then get you to do something different, right? Instead of doing something with you, okay? And so that's one other component is I would ask listeners to think about this, that if you think about other relationships you have, whether it's with a spouse or with friends or with coworkers, in those relationships, I think all of us would agree, an authoritarian model would not work. If I'm gonna yell at my spouse or punish my spouse or my friend for whatever they did,

 

Kyle And Sara Wester (14:3.118)

it's going to hurt the relationship. It's never gonna help it. But we don't think, well, of course I don't wanna do that. We don't think, well, now I have to be permissive. Now I need to let my spouse do whatever they want to me or let my friend talk to me however they want or treat me however they want. Co-workers, if you're in a business, I think that's a really great model. If you've been in that business where your boss just hands out threats, how does that feel? What's that like? Would you do that as a boss? Yeah, and so I want...

we don't think there's only two ways to do those relationships, right? Either I'm in control of my friend or my friend's in control of me, you know? And so I think that helps my imagination, because yes, there are some differences with raising kids, but inevitably you're wanting to teach kids how to have those healthy relationships. You're wanting to raise kids that know how to have a healthy marriage, how to have great friendships, how to know how to be a fantastic coworker, right? And so I want to be able to use techniques and tools

that are actually gonna help them navigate that world because many times when parents haven't done that, Sarah, they've just relied on punishment to control the kid's behavior. The kid is lacking the tools lots of times to navigate that adult world because the tools they've been modeled just don't work in the adult world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I know when we were talking about this earlier for me, there's a piece of it, cause we're always talking like, look at your other relationships. What's successful there, you know? And

And I think if anything, we should be looking at children going, yes, okay, maybe it's not exactly like a marriage or exactly like my coworker or something. But if anything, I think the power dynamic that does exist where the parent is in power calls us to an even higher responsibility in those interactions and what we're modeling and how we're everything we're doing. They're just like little sponges and they're soaking it all in. And where with you, you're another adult and I'm trying to do this.

with my child, they're a child. And if anything, I am called to a higher, higher responsibility of those interactions and what I'm teaching them. Cause what you're saying, the difference there is I'm not teaching you these skills, right? As another adult, I'm not teaching my friend the skills necessarily or my coworker, right? But the kid actually needs these taught, right? Yeah. Every time if I, whatever method I'm choosing is

 

Kyle And Sara Wester (16:18.232)

teaching the child that method as well, where it's different, you know, that, that's. Yeah. So you're saying even more so, I want to be conscious about how I'm doing that with the little kid, because the little kid literally does not know, you know, so the kid does not come in the world with these, you know? And so with the friend or the coworker, the spouse,

punishment definitely isn't gonna work there because that they will pull away from me and they'll say, don't wanna be with you. Yeah, they can. I can say, see ya. Yeah, but you're bringing a point. think that's why we don't use it too, because we don't want that person to divorce us. We don't want that friend to say, I'm not gonna hang out with you anymore, which we know they would if you were constantly thinking, I've gotta do something to you to make you act a different way towards me, right? Yeah. Okay, so now I wanna dive into, now that we've kind of increased the imagination.

that where you're looking around going, why don't I do this in other relationships? If this is so effective, if I think it really works with little kids, why wouldn't it work in other relationships, right? So if we're looking, and then we're looking around going, are there coaches that I've run into? Do I have coaches? Like I know our daughter has a coach right now who's fantastic. He doesn't make threats. Like he connects with the kids and then he uses that relationship.

to be able to guide them to learning the skills, right? He's rarely, if ever yelling at them or doing any those kinds of things, right? And then what's cool about that is then our kid, when she goes to soccer, she's excited. Like she's, she doesn't go anxious. And I know every listener, if you've had a kid in sports, you know, there's those coaches who are very punitive and your kid is worried about what? About displeasing that, that adult. And that adult is using that leverage that you're going to somehow be upset at me or I'm going to be upset at you to then get you to do what I want.

And we don't want our kid going and playing sports with that kind of leadership, right? So, so now let's talk about once we've been able to see like, wait, there are other options. I don't, it doesn't have to be punishment or permissiveness. I want to talk about what another thing that's very compelling is the actual outcomes of punishing. Yeah. Okay. Like, yeah, this was a big one. This was a big one. The meat, very meaningful. Um, it was probably as I'm going down the road, when I started learning these things, then I thought, Oh, wow.

 

Kyle And Sara Wester (18:27.404)

This is important. We need to know this. And as we look at that, I think you wrote down some great ideas of, first of all, why people choose to punish is some of these kind of statements like, my children will learn through punish. That's how children learn. They've got to learn. They're black and white thinkers. They don't understand. They need to learn to They're too young. I've heard that one a lot. actually heard it recently. They're too young. This is the only way they'll get it. Yeah. If I don't punish, my child's going to be out of control.

Good behavior should be rewarded bad behavior should be punished, you know, if I'm not tough my child won't respect me We we heard a lot of that about tough love growing up like you got a tough love. They're gonna run you over Unless you you know, I was punished and I turned out fine. All right, that's a real common one Children need to suffer consequences to learn from their actions Punishment shows I'm in control and immediate compliance

is the goal, instant obedience is the goal, right? So when we actually get to the outcomes of punishment, interestingly enough, from what we have read and what we've studied and what we've experienced with other kids that we've helped and families that we've coached, is the only outcome that quote unquote is positive seems to be instant compliance. That in a lot of the research, when a kid is threatened, you can then get

quote unquote, get a kid to quickly do what you want out of fear of whatever's gonna happen. Yes. Yeah. I think that's kind of true across humans. Yeah. Yeah. It works for me, man. I know. Right. That's kind of the whole idea is if I can scare you enough, threaten you enough, you'll do whatever it is I'm telling you to do, right? Even speeding. Maybe a lot of people choose not to speed. Why? Because they don't want the ticket.

So the fear of seeing the police, that's what saying, the instant compliance, that's example. you may be speeding in general, but then you see the cop car and you quickly slow down. I mean, I've never done that, but yeah. But like for sure, that's the instant compliance we're talking about is the fear of that cop. under that, yeah, with that imposing, that little threat that hovers over you keeps you in line. And that's the only reason we're in line. Yeah. But that brings up another good point is the negative side of that is,

 

Kyle And Sara Wester (20:41.644)

that instant compliance only lasts for that limited time when that fear is present, right? And every parent who's used this, you know this, we experienced as kids, is that that fear needs to be upped, the threat needs to get bigger, you know, because over time, you start to get kind of numb to some of the threats, you know, like I remember getting numb to spankings to some sort. So then now you need to threaten getting grounded for a week or grounded two weeks, or we're going to take this away from you. It's like parents were always trying to find a way to get a power.

leverage over you to scare you into doing what they want. remember that. remember talking to parents and this was when I was actually still in this belief system. It was like, okay, well that one's not working anymore. We need to up the ante or we need to find the thing they really care about. Right. And you're always kind of shifting it because that's how it works in that kind of dynamic. You always have to, you know, change your leverage and you know, yeah, it's diminishing. So you have to up it. Yeah.

And I remember this study that I had read that was really interesting to me. And it reminded me, you know, anyway, so when, when they've studied kids or groups of people and they watch who is going to do something, let's say they taught them something, whatever it is, it could be don't need a cookie without asking or something, but the kids who are in the people, cause they did multiple studies on this, the, people who had a threat over them.

when versus the people who just kind of were choosing it. The ones with a threat when nobody was looking were far more likely to do whatever it was. And it was, and it was found that the, that it had to be, you had to have that threat. So when you weren't looking, you know, so when the teacher's not looking, when the parents not looking, the kids are far less likely to continue whatever the behavior is unless you have that hovering presence compared to the other group.

that were doing it on their own, regardless of whether people were watching them or not. And that was just real. And we've seen that I saw that school all the time. Because what you learn is when kids are punished, is in the kid learns to not do that behavior when you're watching. And it requires you then to actually be hovering constant and then like, you know, parents like nowadays, they were monitoring everything they do even putting cameras in the house. I think we all have those memories of

 

Kyle And Sara Wester (23:2.420)

you or your friend or your brother or sister, it's like, oh, no adults are around and they feel like they can then get away with it. Right? Well, I know we've heard parents say this and maybe some listeners have done this, but even saying when they leave the house and the kids are home alone, they have cameras everywhere. And so they let the kids know we're watching you. that's the only way. is that success? Like, is it that the kid is only doing it because we're watching? It says external control. Yeah. So that's the one outcome that we don't want. Number two,

Kids learn to hide the behavior better. So kids, what we've experienced and I saw it in school all the time, they just get better at being sneaky. They get better at going, if it's only bad when you see it, then when you don't see it, is it still bad? Because it's like, technically it's not bad until you see it and judge it as that. And then it's okay. So that's another outcome that I'm sure many listeners have experienced. They are more likely to lie to you than be honest with you.

because of the fear of punishment. Yep. Yeah. And lying as far as we're so hard on kids about lying, but it's also something it's, it's like, Oh, I've figured out a way to protect myself. I know if I tell you the truth, what's going to happen. I'm not a dummy. know you're going to mad at me. Yeah. So they're actually smart enough. It's the little kid, know, that little two, are you eating cookie? Yes. You know, but, when they get old enough to actually lie, it's an aside of intelligence, like

I know what's coming if I tell you the truth. So we're hard on them about lying, yet we also contribute to that situation. They also, like you mentioned, external control. They don't learn to develop internal control. They believe, I mean, when I've talked to kids, Sarah, who are, when I'm coaching these families, I'm trying to help them change these dynamics, the kids believe that they will not do good things unless there's fear keeping them from doing bad. So after a long time of being in a home where the message is,

we keep you from doing bad things. The kid thinks left to my own devices, I would just do bad things. I'm do terrible things. Yeah. And it even kind of speaks to the level of confidence in themselves. You know, I make bad decisions versus the belief that I on my own can make decisions that are going to help me and help other people. then what grows out of that is then the kid doesn't think it's their responsibility to control themselves. They learn to give that responsibility.

 

Kyle And Sara Wester (25:25.900)

to their parents. They'll even say, I probably need my parents to threaten to take away my phone, otherwise I'm going to keep failing that class. And so they don't think it's their job or their responsibility to control their own behavior. They have been taught and almost like trained to believe that it's not your responsibility to do it. It's ours to threaten you to make you do it. And you'll see that even in adults in the workplace in the future.

It's like they're going to show up to work or they're going to work and do their job or whatever because of the boss hovering over them. You kind of see that carry on into adult life. Yep. Or even like that happens in marriage too. Like if there's a contentious marriage and the other person's mad about whatever it's like that they like, Oh, if she found out or he found out, she'd be so mad at me. then they're, they're stuff instead of saying like, I want to be a great husband or a great wife. It's the fear of being caught.

And Linden will believe I would continue doing the bad thing unless she was on top of me. And that's what creates a lot of marriages, a mothering or a relationship with them. It's tension builds. then also another thing that we see in punishment, it deteriorates the relationship over time. So I'm sure you've experienced this. Anytime you're punishing your kid, the kid begins to get the message that you are not for them, that you are against them. Yeah. Yeah. It's you versus them.

I think this is the one that kind of breaks my heart really, really about it because you can see it on these kids' faces and you can see it in the relationship, even on the parent side of the sadness or even the parent feels like I have got to do this because I care about my child. I have to punish them. And they even own that they can feel the distance there. They can feel resentment can build, especially in the teen years, you know.

and you just see this distance growing between them and that just breaks my heart that it doesn't need to be there. But it exists because of anyone who's punished anytime someone has punished you, you don't feel a close trusting connection to that person in that moment. Yeah, will use the keyword. I think it breaks that trust. Yeah. And it hurts. And it hurts relationship. that just

 

Kyle And Sara Wester (27:41.376)

over time really deteriorates. Well, and the dance it creates between you and the kid is this adversarial relationship. It's like it's almost like that idea of when they're little, the kid tries to run away and you have to grab the kid and it creates this pulling back and forth thing. know, the kid thinks it's their job to run and your job to grab. And it's like, we're not really for each other here. you of feel like when your parent is around, it's not because they're cheering you on. They're with you. They love you. I mean, there's a piece of that you'll see like, Oh, I think they are. But

only if I'm doing this, right? And so it's not, they're also, they may be that, but they're also watching me, you know? And there's that always like, ah, sometimes I don't want that around me. I just want to feel, yeah. Yeah. And even then when I'm teaching some parents the skills to do it differently, it takes a long time for the kid to trust it, that the parent isn't coming in to do that. And then another thing that's now come is you're missing an opportunity to actually disciple and teach a new skill.

Like all behavior, listen to that podcast we did a few months ago, all behavior is just skills. So any behavior you're seeing that you don't like, or you don't prefer the kid to do, that's a moment to teach. And the punishment actually undermines your opportunity to disciple and actually discipline the kid by teaching a new skill. And actually the kid wants you to do it. The kid actually wants to know how to do it in a better way that you're not going to get upset about, but they just think, no, actually this is all about you just doing something to me.

And it's like, atone for my sins. You kind of both buy into, okay, the punishment was what was needed for whatever action. And so we're done. The child believes that you, but then that situation comes up again and the child is still lacking. They know maybe they're going to get punished for it, but that doesn't mean they've gained the skill, the regulation, the tools they need to do that differently. The next time it comes up.

And with that, big part of growing and changing is the kid learning how to reflect on their behavior and learn from it. But when punishment is used, the kid doesn't think that's their job. The kid thinks it's their job just to get punished and then it's all over. So they're not sitting back thinking about what they did and how to change it. They're thinking what they did and how you got mad at them. Right? keeps that focus on the external instead of what's going on inside of you, what belief emotion, what, was going on there that we need to work on.

 

Kyle And Sara Wester (30:3.942)

The internal is neglected. then on top of that, it takes away the chance for them to really reflect upon the true consequence of their action, like the relationships they hurt or the way in which they cause some serious harm to somebody because they believe the imposed consequence, the punishment is really the end outcome of their actions when it isn't really that hurt relationship is the thing that's going to be.

more long lasting. So they're not able to see the ripple. And I know the parents listening want that. That's good. We want the kid to be able to go look what I did now. But when we punish or impose these consequences, we're yelling or grounding or take these kind of things and the kid thinks that is the consequence. Well, it's not the consequence. The consequences is the ripple that happened from there that hurt other people, right? It made it to where people trust you less or that. They believe they need to be punished in order to atone for what they've done. Another outcome is they're more susceptible.

to being abused by other adults. Yeah. Yeah. So the downside of kids who comply is they learn their brain gets kind of wired to just, I'm told to do something, I do it. If there's a bit of a threat, I do it. And they, don't really learn the other skills of how to talk to people or have their boundaries or, you know, things like that. So then there they are over time. You see those kids are more likely to.

be abused. Yeah, that they also get into relationships that are well, they're just more susceptible to Yeah, because they're, I think an abuser can see that and go, Oh, if I just threaten this kid's more likely to do what then they also start to compliance learning, I just have to say yes to adults, they also start to believe that they need to follow the rules and obey, so they can become a good person. Because good, good, like the punishment, they start to believe is to make them

better person, make a good person. I need to follow the rules, but then mom and dad will then be happier with me. And if I obey, then now I have somehow become worthy of love and now I'm a good person. And I hear that a lot when I'm working with teenagers and stuff. Yep. I'm loved when I blah, blah, blah, instead of I'm just lovable. And I'm sure there's even more, but my last one that I had written down, and I'd love to hear from any listeners, if you think of other ones, other outcomes of punishment that you've noticed in your own life or in your kid's life.

 

Kyle And Sara Wester (32:15.450)

is instead of creating a sense of safety and trust, punishment often creates a power struggle, making discipline less effective in the long run. Meaning now you're trying to like, because you've created this power struggle, that anytime you're trying to engage and actually disciple, it's just not effective. Like I found kids are very resistant to the parent now trying to do it is because the kids, you know, parents are like, I'm not punishing all the time. Yeah, but

it leaves a mark. leaves them. So then when you're trying to actually discipline in regards to discipling, it's just less effective because the kid thinks that's not how this dance is. you're eventually just off to keep pushing the limits. You'll get mad at me and then I'll get punished. And then that's going to stop. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, so I wanted to, I mean, that's a lot of, that's a lot of outcomes, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All of this stuff led us down the road. We're down now. Yep.

You know, those were the, the, information, the, all this stuff was like, wait, okay. Is punishment necessary? Is punishment helpful? Maybe it's not. Yeah. So we just wanted this podcast to start increasing your imagination, start that conversation with you and your, uh, your spouse or the other co-parent. If you're wanting to change this, cause I'm telling you, your kids, every kid I talked to about this, they're like, I would love that if my parents would actually like.

come together with me. Because that third option is instead of us doing something to our kids, we're actually working together with them. And today we're not going to go into depth of what that looks like. We've done that in previous podcasts, but also in a few weeks, we're going to delve more into this subject to continue equipping as well. So if you're just now getting on this journey with us, or you've heard us for a while, we want to start having a deeper dive into this, because we really want to start helping parents just be more educated and more informed to be the parents they

want to be and also leave the legacy that they want to leave. And so I hope you hear from us on this, you don't need to spank, you don't need to threaten, you don't need to put your kids in time bow or scare your kids into obedience. Okay, your kids actually want to cooperate and have a positive relationship with you. So I know in a couple weeks, Sarah, we're to talk about how our kids, want to grow up to be great human beings just like you want. Like they actually have the same goals.

 

Kyle And Sara Wester (34:35.426)

They want to be successful academically and successfully in their relationships. They don't want to fail at school. They don't want to fail at life. They actually want to be disciplined because I'm telling you, it feels good when you are disciplined. know even as adults, sometimes we feel out of control and we lack discipline and it doesn't feel good. brains are wired for this. We're wired to go in this direction. And so I hope in your imagination, I want you to see your kids actually want a relationship with you.

where they can co-create this life and this family that you both are desiring to create. Okay? So definitely if you know families who need to hear this message, who you know they're still contemplating. Yeah, they're wondering. Yeah, is punishment needed? We know that road. We know it takes a little bit of like, is this even possible? Yeah, definitely send it their way. And also if you're needing help in this area, this is what we do. We help coach parents to move away from fear and shame

move away from punishment to instead be empowered with their child to create the family they want. So seek us out, reach out to me at Kyle at Art of Raising Humans. And I'd love to set up a call with you to where we can discuss how we can help you. So I hope this was thoughtful. I hope it's given you something to chew on today and just spend time thinking about maybe how you were raised, how punishment, what the effects were on you, share a shoot, reach out to us, email us or comment down below, send us a review, all those things about.

how punishment was used and the effect it had on your life and reasons why you want to move away from it. We'd love to hear from you. Thanks for listening.

Okay, so I'm gonna do the intro real quick, okay? Nice, hold on, okay, good. You wanna wait here, good, okay. Or actually go and go, that way you don't have worry about that, you can go take that and just move your chair, okay? Thanks, honey.

 

Kyle And Sara Wester (36:29.716)

Okay, so intro to this episode.

 

Kyle And Sara Wester (36:36.888)

Today, Sarah and I want to tackle a very important question when it comes to raising kids. And the question is this, can you discipline kids without punishment? And I'll give you a sneak preview. The answer is yes. But what does that look like? Can you imagine? Have you ever seen that done? Does it look like to you just a crazy chaotic mess?

with kids running you over and all out of control? Or could there be another way it could end? And would it feel better to know we actually created the family we wanted without the use of punishment? So today we wanna spend some time just helping you imagine what that could look like. We wanna invite you on the journey that we took as we asked some of these questions, as we delved into the real outcomes of punishment in positive and negative ways.

and how we made the decision to move away from it and how it feels to raise a family where it's just never been used. And so I hope you'll join us today on this journey and I hope you'll take a moment to just really open your mind and open your heart to just a different way of seeing parenting. And we're excited to do this with you. If you haven't already, please take a moment. We'd love to get a review from you. Reviews are so important for other parents to be able to.

have access to this podcast. just kind of moves us up in the rankings and we'd love to get up there high even more than we are now. We're already in the top 2 % of parenting podcasts, which is fantastic, but we'd love to get up in that 1 % and reach even more parents with this helpful information so they can change the legacies in their families to ones that they really want to leave instead of just recreating what was done to them. So take a moment, leave a review and a comment and enjoy the episode.